Designated Hittah for the DH
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26-06-2013, 02:51 PM
RE: Designated Hittah for the DH
(26-06-2013 02:43 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:One supernatural event described in the Bible, which has non-textual evidence. Pony up. Come on. And if you say things like universe creation you must provide the evidence that they are supernatural. You *said*, my fine friend, that textual evidence was not sufficient by itself. Either retract your assertion, and explicitly claim that the Bible is all the evidence you need, or... supply evidence...

Or just stick around and look dumb. I guess there's always that option too.

Your syllogism started with a false premise:

You asked for evidence of a supernatural event in the same post as you defended JDEP since I pointed out there's no empirical evidence for it, and it's only assertions made about textual content.

Therefore, you are asserting either that 1) JDEP construction of the text must be taken without evidence, and must be a supernatural event and/or 2) Biblical, supernatural events are allowable without empirical evidence, just like JDEP is allowed without empirical evidence or 3) You give unequal credence to supernatural events, for which there is documentary evidence (the Bible) then you do JDEP, for which there is no evidence or 4) You tend to accept naturalist explanations for items without evidence.

I pointed out that *if* you assert that textual evidence is without validity for this JDEP you keep rambling on about (which has apparently already been superseded as a theory according to Maklelan, if I read correctly), *then* to be correct and honest you must therefore justify why it is valid in the case of the Bible itself.

It's about *your* logic mate, nothing to do with what I believe. I couldn't give a stuff about JDEP itself. But logic, now logic is interesting. Now how about that supernatural event hmm ?
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26-06-2013, 03:27 PM (This post was last modified: 26-06-2013 03:49 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Designated Hittah for the DH
(26-06-2013 02:48 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  The Septuagint is not scriptures but a translation of scriptures. You might as well show us a Jehovah's Witness Bible from the Watchtower Society with its deliberate mistranslations and say "The Bible has changed" when it hasn't.

As for fragments of scrolls found in Qumran or near the Dead Sea, you have an equal issue since they're FRAGMENTS. You're conveniently ignoring the eight complete copies of Isaiah that were found, and in this Bible book of 55,000 Hebrew words, ONE WORD HAD CHANGED OVER THE NEXT 1,000 YEARS to the next available copy, one word being an indefinite article (the) which did not change the meaning of the text.

Every schoolboy knows that the Masora OCD-counted words, passages, sentences, etc. and BURNED each Hebrew scroll copy if a single mistake was found. There has never been in the history of man more accurate copies made of texts with the exception of modern data switched between computers.
There has never been in the history of man more accurate copies made of texts with the exception of modern data switched between computers.

So, now all you have to do is prove that, with all the examples of ALL the other texts you have evidence for, and all the other examples you have examined, and ALL the data about all the changes.
Please present it in table form. Tomorrow will be fine. Please include at least two examples of Chineese, Japanese, Hindi, Sumerian, Egyptian, and Greek literature for comparison. You DO have those I assume to make that assertion credibly, right ?
You wouldn't just be talking out of your ass again now would you ?

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26-06-2013, 03:30 PM
RE: Designated Hittah for the DH
(26-06-2013 02:48 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:This is flatly false. From the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint we can show numerous examples of earlier versions of texts that are much, much different from the forms in which they exist today. For example, the book of Jeremiah in the Septuagint is about 1/8 shorter, missing most of the optimistic prophesying. People long thought that the Septuagint translators just left a bunch of stuff out, but we discovered fragments of Jeremiah among the Dead Sea Scrolls that omit those very same segments, showing the text was not made shorter by the Septuagint translators, but made longer after the Septuagint was translated. Around the turn of the era, Jeremiah was lengthened by about 14%. We have the same expansion taking place in the books of Kings. Those are just a couple examples of numerous that could be given.

Sorry. The Septuagint is not scriptures but a translation of scriptures. You might as well show us a Jehovah's Witness Bible from the Watchtower Society with its deliberate mistranslations and say "The Bible has changed" when it hasn't.

As for fragments of scrolls found in Qumran or near the Dead Sea, you have an equal issue since they're FRAGMENTS. You're conveniently ignoring the eight complete copies of Isaiah that were found, and in this Bible book of 55,000 Hebrew words, ONE WORD HAD CHANGED OVER THE NEXT 1,000 YEARS to the next available copy, one word being an indefinite article (the) which did not change the meaning of the text.

Every schoolboy knows that the Masora OCD-counted words, passages, sentences, etc. and BURNED each Hebrew scroll copy if a single mistake was found. There has never been in the history of man more accurate copies made of texts with the exception of modern data switched between computers.

There are documented differences among copies of scripture, so your assertion is false.

Try again.

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26-06-2013, 03:44 PM
RE: Designated Hittah for the DH
(26-06-2013 02:48 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Sorry. The Septuagint is not scriptures but a translation of scriptures. You might as well show us a Jehovah's Witness Bible from the Watchtower Society with its deliberate mistranslations and say "The Bible has changed" when it hasn't.

As for fragments of scrolls found in Qumran or near the Dead Sea, you have an equal issue since they're FRAGMENTS. You're conveniently ignoring the eight complete copies of Isaiah that were found, and in this Bible book of 55,000 Hebrew words, ONE WORD HAD CHANGED OVER THE NEXT 1,000 YEARS to the next available copy, one word being an indefinite article (the) which did not change the meaning of the text.

Every schoolboy knows that the Masora OCD-counted words, passages, sentences, etc. and BURNED each Hebrew scroll copy if a single mistake was found. There has never been in the history of man more accurate copies made of texts with the exception of modern data switched between computers.

Perfectly copied bullshit is still bullshit. And we don't have *any* true originals to use for comparison, so your point is moot.

Anyway, why were councils needed centuries after the fact to wade through various scriptures and define what was canon/apocryphal/spurious/heretical if there weren't so many different opinions on what was, ah, kosher when it came to the bible? I thought god was not the author of confusion?
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26-06-2013, 04:51 PM
RE: Designated Hittah for the DH
(26-06-2013 02:48 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Sorry. The Septuagint is not scriptures but a translation of scriptures. You might as well show us a Jehovah's Witness Bible from the Watchtower Society with its deliberate mistranslations and say "The Bible has changed" when it hasn't.

Odd. How come the majority of the New Testament's quotations of the Old Testament quote the Septuagint and not the Hebrew? If the Septuagint was scripture for Jesus, on what grounds do you denigrate it?

(26-06-2013 02:48 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  As for fragments of scrolls found in Qumran or near the Dead Sea, you have an equal issue since they're FRAGMENTS. You're conveniently ignoring the eight complete copies of Isaiah that were found,

Completely false. There was one complete copy of Isaiah (1QIsa-a) and another twenty incomplete copies. The majority contain less than 10% of the book. See Emanuel Tov's discussion of the text of Isaiah at Qumran here.

(26-06-2013 02:48 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  and in this Bible book of 55,000 Hebrew words,

Wrong again. There are 22,838 words in the Hebrew text of Isaiah (Leningrad Codex).

(26-06-2013 02:48 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  ONE WORD HAD CHANGED OVER THE NEXT 1,000 YEARS to the next available copy, one word being an indefinite article (the)

"The" is a definite article, and it is not a word in Hebrew, it's an inseparable prefix. "A" is an indefinite article.

(26-06-2013 02:48 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  which did not change the meaning of the text.

Another falsehood. I put together the critical apparatus for most of the chapters in the new Biblia Hebraica Quinta edition of the book of Isaiah, and I looked at every single Qumran manuscript available that witnessed to the text of Isaiah. There are variants in virtually every single verse of the book. You can see each page of the manuscript here, with discussion of many of the variants.

(26-06-2013 02:48 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Every schoolboy knows that the Masora OCD-counted words, passages, sentences, etc. and BURNED each Hebrew scroll copy if a single mistake was found.

Based on the manuscript tradition that came down to them in late antiquity. Before around the second century CE, however, there was a great deal of textual instability.

(26-06-2013 02:48 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  There has never been in the history of man more accurate copies made of texts with the exception of modern data switched between computers.

Also not true at all. It's been remarkably well preserved, but it is still chock full of changes and errors. Even the Masoretes acknowledged that, that's why they have qere readings.

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26-06-2013, 05:26 PM
RE: Designated Hittah for the DH
(25-06-2013 08:15 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Present to me extra-biblical evidence for a supernatural event of your choice, since you have here asserted that textual evidence is insufficient.

An excellent try. We can look at cosmology and the creation of the universe or evolution, and then we can argue over thousands, and thousands, and thousands of individual data points. There remains, however, no evidence that there were earlier versions of any Old Testament scriptures or books that were later edited and redacted before they appeared in the form in which we know them today.

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26-06-2013, 11:47 PM
RE: Designated Hittah for the DH
..... before I weigh in on this, could someone explain to me why I should even care if it was the documentary hypothesis that tracks the history of the Bible's evolution, rather than some other path of evolution? Because this sounds a lot like one of TheWord's "you can't PROVE I'm wrong" threads.

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28-06-2013, 02:51 PM
RE: Designated Hittah for the DH
Quote:Odd. How come the majority of the New Testament's quotations of the Old Testament quote the Septuagint and not the Hebrew? If the Septuagint was scripture for Jesus, on what grounds do you denigrate it?

This is why I can't get anything accomplished here. You're changing the subject utterly and dodging the skewering you received.

You cited the Septuagint as proof that the Hebrew Bible had been redacted post composition. Then I pointed out it's a TRANSLATION of the HB. You sound like the thousands of people out there that confuse "the Bible's been changed thousands of times" with "the Bible's been translated thousands of times".

**

Thanks for correcting my poor use of the indefinite article. That's about all that was accurate in your refutation, for example:

Quote:Another falsehood. I put together the critical apparatus for most of the chapters in the new Biblia Hebraica Quinta edition of the book of Isaiah, and I looked at every single Qumran manuscript available that witnessed to the text of Isaiah. There are variants in virtually every single verse of the book. You can see each page of the manuscript here, with discussion of many of the variants.

You are cherry picking what you want from Essene traditions. The Essenes were secretive and a Messianic cult in terms of they had a different Messiah than the one who came.
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28-06-2013, 02:51 PM
RE: Designated Hittah for the DH
Quote:..... before I weigh in on this, could someone explain to me why I should even care if it was the documentary hypothesis that tracks the history of the Bible's evolution, rather than some other path of evolution? Because this sounds a lot like one of TheWord's "you can't PROVE I'm wrong" threads.

Indeed.
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28-06-2013, 02:53 PM
RE: Designated Hittah for the DH
Quote:So, now all you have to do is prove that, with all the examples of ALL the other texts you have evidence for, and all the other examples you have examined, and ALL the data about all the changes.
Please present it in table form. Tomorrow will be fine. Please include at least two examples of Chineese, Japanese, Hindi, Sumerian, Egyptian, and Greek literature for comparison. You DO have those I assume to make that assertion credibly, right ?
You wouldn't just be talking out of your ass again now would you ?

BB, really? Really?

We have five (?) copies extant of Suetonius, we know Homeric epics constantly changed, we know we're not sure if Caesar wrote his panegyric or if it was ghost written, etc. and we have 22,000 (?) New Testament fragments and letters from the first two centuries after Christ. You're asking for a table and there are entire books on the subject of the received canon.

You might as well ask me for "books proving Hitler did immoral things".
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