Poll: What do you ascribe to?
Determinism
Free Will
Compatibalism
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Determinators or Free Willies?
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20-10-2010, 04:19 PM
RE: Determinators or Free Willies?
(20-10-2010 04:05 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(20-10-2010 03:36 PM)Gucar Wrote:  determinism is a religious view of our world a "devine plan" it has already been chosen for us

No, it isn't. At least, not in this context. "Determinism" is the philosophical position that free will does not exist. That what happens in the universe is dictated by cause and effect rather than choice.

Quote:to believe we dont have a free will then you must believe that someone is in control of you

No, you don't. This is a false dichotomy. There is very much a third option: no one is in control of you.

And don't worry about your English. It's a little off, but it's understandable. Don't sweat it.

ok just one thing its good to have a second opinion of what ive learned earlier, about the second thing if nothing is done nothing changes, then the world woulnd't go on. i guess you can argue that time changes things but the only things time does is to alow people to age for example and we age mostly because of oxygen. so if noone is in control of you nothing would happen and since things happen that means somebody has to be in controll.
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20-10-2010, 05:49 PM
RE: Determinators or Free Willies?
Maybe I'm just undereducated on the subject (this was the first time I've heard of any of this and I just did a quck skim of the wikipedia articles of them beforehand), but I find it incredibly difficult for me to believe that me writing this post at this moment is caused and not done by my own free will. I don't believe we have free will in everything we do, and I do beleive that lots of things are determined by natural causation, but I cannot bring myself to even imagine having everything I think and say and do being determined by past influences or occurences. I would even argue to say that evolution of thought and technology speaks against it. But, again, I admit that I'm severely undereducated on the topic and I may be looking into this completely wrong.

So, given my stance on some things being caused by natural forces while other things, such as thought or rejection of thought (or even the rejection of the rejection of thought) are brought about by free will, I guess that makes me a Compatibalist.

"It does feel like something to be wrong; it feels like being right." -Kathryn Schulz
I am 100% certain that I am wrong about something I am certain about right now. Because even if everything I stand for turns out to be completely true, I was still wrong about being wrong.
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20-10-2010, 10:56 PM
RE: Determinators or Free Willies?
Please be aware the Determinism and Predeterminism are two different concepts. The religious idea (calvinism and such) is Predeterminism. Determinism is completely different.
(20-10-2010 05:49 PM)LeviTimes Wrote:  Maybe I'm just undereducated on the subject (this was the first time I've heard of any of this and I just did a quck skim of the wikipedia articles of them beforehand), but I find it incredibly difficult for me to believe that me writing this post at this moment is caused and not done by my own free will. I don't believe we have free will in everything we do, and I do beleive that lots of things are determined by natural causation, but I cannot bring myself to even imagine having everything I think and say and do being determined by past influences or occurences. I would even argue to say that evolution of thought and technology speaks against it. But, again, I admit that I'm severely undereducated on the topic and I may be looking into this completely wrong.

So, given my stance on some things being caused by natural forces while other things, such as thought or rejection of thought (or even the rejection of the rejection of thought) are brought about by free will, I guess that makes me a Compatibalist.

Many would argue that evolution speaks for the concept of determinism.
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21-10-2010, 04:44 AM
RE: Determinators or Free Willies?
Quote:so if noone is in control of you nothing would happen and since things happen that means somebody has to be in controll.
Don't mix ''somebody'' and ''something'' together. Nobody is in control, physics are.

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21-10-2010, 06:31 AM (This post was last modified: 21-10-2010 06:35 AM by Gucar.)
RE: Determinators or Free Willies?
(20-10-2010 10:56 PM)sosa Wrote:  Please be aware the Determinism and Predeterminism are two different concepts. The religious idea (calvinism and such) is Predeterminism. Determinism is completely different.
(20-10-2010 05:49 PM)LeviTimes Wrote:  Maybe I'm just undereducated on the subject (this was the first time I've heard of any of this and I just did a quck skim of the wikipedia articles of them beforehand), but I find it incredibly difficult for me to believe that me writing this post at this moment is caused and not done by my own free will. I don't believe we have free will in everything we do, and I do beleive that lots of things are determined by natural causation, but I cannot bring myself to even imagine having everything I think and say and do being determined by past influences or occurences. I would even argue to say that evolution of thought and technology speaks against it. But, again, I admit that I'm severely undereducated on the topic and I may be looking into this completely wrong.

So, given my stance on some things being caused by natural forces while other things, such as thought or rejection of thought (or even the rejection of the rejection of thought) are brought about by free will, I guess that makes me a Compatibalist.

Many would argue that evolution speaks for the concept of determinism.

you can also argue that evolution is based on random coinsidenses, and our world as it looks today is the only ways things can look and if per say a other planet with had same condistions as tellus had. then that planet would have exactly the same persons and the same technology as us. after the exact same time, many sientists beleive this is the only way it can turn out, other sientists belive that can turn our entirely diffrent
(21-10-2010 04:44 AM)Kikko Wrote:  
Quote:so if noone is in control of you nothing would happen and since things happen that means somebody has to be in controll.
Don't mix ''somebody'' and ''something'' together. Nobody is in control, physics are.

yeah thats true. something per say physics are, but if u are bound by the laws of physics as we are, but the laws of physics doesn't stop you from eating a hamburger, so you are in control of yourself.
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21-10-2010, 07:36 AM
RE: Determinators or Free Willies?
Quote:but the laws of physics doesn't stop you from eating a hamburger, so you are in control of yourself.
I'm glad they don't! But something in ones brains makes one make the decision to eat a hamburger. The something is determined by something, maybe you have some extra money in your pocket and you see a Mac Donalds and that brings a hamburger into your mind and many many things determine whether you have a burger or not. If the ''you'' would be me, I would remember how bad Mac Donalds burgers are and go to a better burger place.
At the time I think free will is a some sort of illusion. Of course I haven't gotten much into it, so I haven't completely made up my mind.

In small scale, something in some particles can be random, but because (at least most of) the stuff that happens in huge scale is determined by lots of lots of lots of particles together, it doesn't have a notable effect.
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21-10-2010, 09:10 AM
RE: Determinators or Free Willies?
(20-10-2010 04:19 PM)Gucar Wrote:  about the second thing if nothing is done nothing changes, then the world woulnd't go on. i guess you can argue that time changes things but the only things time does is to alow people to age for example

Uh... time does everything. Every single thing that happens in this universe happens over time.

Quote:and we age mostly because of oxygen.

No, we don't. We age because of telomeres.

Quote:so if noone is in control of you nothing would happen

This is a non sequitur - it does not logically follow from what you said previously. You specifically said that time can make things happen. Therefore, stuff can happen if no one is controlling it.

(20-10-2010 05:49 PM)LeviTimes Wrote:  Maybe I'm just undereducated on the subject (this was the first time I've heard of any of this and I just did a quck skim of the wikipedia articles of them beforehand), but I find it incredibly difficult for me to believe that me writing this post at this moment is caused and not done by my own free will.

Why?

Quote:I don't believe we have free will in everything we do, and I do beleive that lots of things are determined by natural causation, but I cannot bring myself to even imagine having everything I think and say and do being determined by past influences or occurences.

Why not? Where's the line? What can you choose to do and what is predetermined?

(21-10-2010 06:31 AM)Gucar Wrote:  you can also argue that evolution is based on random coinsidenses, and our world as it looks today is the only ways things can look and if per say a other planet with had same condistions as tellus had. then that planet would have exactly the same persons and the same technology as us. after the exact same time, many sientists beleive this is the only way it can turn out, other sientists belive that can turn our entirely diffrent

It can turn out entirely differently. Because of quantum. Like he said, determinism - the position that there is no such thing as free will - is not the same as predeterminism - that there is only one way for things to happen.

Quote:yeah thats true. something per say physics are, but if u are bound by the laws of physics as we are, but the laws of physics doesn't stop you from eating a hamburger, so you are in control of yourself.

Why would the laws of physics stop you from doing something that is physically possible?

That said, you misunderstood the argument. Physics is "in control" because everything that happens in this universe is a result of a physical interaction, whether that interaction be electromagnetic, gravitational, chemical or something else entirely.

Our brains are a series of electrochemical reactions. These reactions are governed by the laws of physics - you won't just have a reaction that had no cause, as that would violate physics (and causality). Since everything that goes on in your head is determined by physics (is deterministic), it is logically impossible for you to have free will, since free will requires that you are able to "choose" your actions (e.g. break causality).

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
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21-10-2010, 09:56 AM (This post was last modified: 21-10-2010 10:01 AM by Gucar.)
RE: Determinators or Free Willies?
(21-10-2010 09:10 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(20-10-2010 04:19 PM)Gucar Wrote:  about the second thing if nothing is done nothing changes, then the world woulnd't go on. i guess you can argue that time changes things but the only things time does is to alow people to age for example

Uh... time does everything. Every single thing that happens in this universe happens over time.

Quote:and we age mostly because of oxygen.

No, we don't. We age because of telomeres.

Quote:so if noone is in control of you nothing would happen

This is a non sequitur - it does not logically follow from what you said previously. You specifically said that time can make things happen. Therefore, stuff can happen if no one is controlling it.

(20-10-2010 05:49 PM)LeviTimes Wrote:  Maybe I'm just undereducated on the subject (this was the first time I've heard of any of this and I just did a quck skim of the wikipedia articles of them beforehand), but I find it incredibly difficult for me to believe that me writing this post at this moment is caused and not done by my own free will.

Why?

Quote:I don't believe we have free will in everything we do, and I do beleive that lots of things are determined by natural causation, but I cannot bring myself to even imagine having everything I think and say and do being determined by past influences or occurences.

Why not? Where's the line? What can you choose to do and what is predetermined?

(21-10-2010 06:31 AM)Gucar Wrote:  you can also argue that evolution is based on random coinsidenses, and our world as it looks today is the only ways things can look and if per say a other planet with had same condistions as tellus had. then that planet would have exactly the same persons and the same technology as us. after the exact same time, many sientists beleive this is the only way it can turn out, other sientists belive that can turn our entirely diffrent

It can turn out entirely differently. Because of quantum. Like he said, determinism - the position that there is no such thing as free will - is not the same as predeterminism - that there is only one way for things to happen.

Quote:yeah thats true. something per say physics are, but if u are bound by the laws of physics as we are, but the laws of physics doesn't stop you from eating a hamburger, so you are in control of yourself.

Why would the laws of physics stop you from doing something that is physically possible?

That said, you misunderstood the argument. Physics is "in control" because everything that happens in this universe is a result of a physical interaction, whether that interaction be electromagnetic, gravitational, chemical or something else entirely.

Our brains are a series of electrochemical reactions. These reactions are governed by the laws of physics - you won't just have a reaction that had no cause, as that would violate physics (and causality). Since everything that goes on in your head is determined by physics (is deterministic), it is logically impossible for you to have free will, since free will requires that you are able to "choose" your actions (e.g. break causality).

time does nothing, it alows things to happen but time itself does nothing that was what i ment.
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21-10-2010, 10:48 AM
 
RE: Determinators or Free Willies?
(20-10-2010 05:49 PM)LeviTimes Wrote:  Maybe I'm just undereducated on the subject (this was the first time I've heard of any of this...

I am in the same boat as you are. This is the first time I've heard any of these terms, save for "free will". And after quick Google's I would also agree that I appear to be one that would support Compatibalism.
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21-10-2010, 03:55 PM
RE: Determinators or Free Willies?
Unbeliever Wrote:
LeviTimes Wrote:Maybe I'm just undereducated on the subject (this was the first time I've heard of any of this and I just did a quck skim of the wikipedia articles of them beforehand), but I find it incredibly difficult for me to believe that me writing this post at this moment is caused and not done by my own free will.

Why?

Because it doesn't make any sense to me that reading your response to my message triggered a certain chemical reaction that triggered countless more reactions that made me post this response. To think that there was no other way for me to do it, to think that my correction of a typo just now, as opposed to almost no corrections of my typos in the earlier post, all happened because of causal reactions... It doesn't make sense to me. I don't see how reading something would make any physical reaction strong enough to make me do something, and make me do that something one particular way. Again, I might be assuming too much about determinism, please correct me if I am. Smile

Quote:
Quote:I don't believe we have free will in everything we do, and I do beleive that lots of things are determined by natural causation, but I cannot bring myself to even imagine having everything I think and say and do being determined by past influences or occurences.

Why not? Where's the line? What can you choose to do and what is predetermined?

The line is consciousness, to me. Reflexes such as yanking your hand away from a hotplate or throwing your hands out before you when you fall are determined actions. So are sleep and your heartbeat. There's a shading over area within breathing (you can hold your breath, but you're forced to gasp for air eventually) and I'm sure there are other functions with the same type of thing. Then there are actions such as me typing on these keys, thinking about the content of this sentence, and scratching my leg. Any one of those things I could effortlessly choose not to do. I don't see how I'm being causally determined to do any of it, really.

"It does feel like something to be wrong; it feels like being right." -Kathryn Schulz
I am 100% certain that I am wrong about something I am certain about right now. Because even if everything I stand for turns out to be completely true, I was still wrong about being wrong.
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