Determinism Is Self Defeating
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16-07-2013, 07:56 PM
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating
This guy is basically copying word for word his posts from AF.org. Definitely calling troll on this one.

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16-07-2013, 08:09 PM
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating
(16-07-2013 07:48 PM)I and I Wrote:  You are correct in that ones decisions are from many unpredictable factors...however there is a negative aspect to all of that, this negative aspect has a lot to do with choice therefore is productive.

I don't follow at all.

(16-07-2013 07:48 PM)I and I Wrote:  We can choose to forget, exaggerate certain memories, suppress certain memories, forget on accident etc etc. That is where free will comes from, not from the positive aspects of our brain but from the negative parts of our brain.

Positive and negative are subjective, and unrealistically polar. Positive/negative for who or what? What parts of the brain do you perceive to be positive/negative?

In any event how do you know if you are suppressing a memory because you chose to do so with your 'free will' and not because some sort of trauma triggered an electrochemical survival response from your brain? How do you even know that you are repressing a memory if you are repressing it? Are you saying that we have free will because we are not perfect recording devices? Do people with photographic memory lack free will?

(16-07-2013 07:48 PM)I and I Wrote:  We can see the same documentary and write a different paper about it because of what I said above.

We can see the same documentary and write a different paper because both have different genetics and different experiences, hence different thought processes. A dog can watch the documentary and eat your paper, that doesn't give you or the dog freewill.

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17-07-2013, 11:22 AM
Determinism Is Self Defeating
(16-07-2013 08:09 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  
(16-07-2013 07:48 PM)I and I Wrote:  You are correct in that ones decisions are from many unpredictable factors...however there is a negative aspect to all of that, this negative aspect has a lot to do with choice therefore is productive.

I don't follow at all.

(16-07-2013 07:48 PM)I and I Wrote:  We can choose to forget, exaggerate certain memories, suppress certain memories, forget on accident etc etc. That is where free will comes from, not from the positive aspects of our brain but from the negative parts of our brain.

Positive and negative are subjective, and unrealistically polar. Positive/negative for who or what? What parts of the brain do you perceive to be positive/negative?

In any event how do you know if you are suppressing a memory because you chose to do so with your 'free will' and not because some sort of trauma triggered an electrochemical survival response from your brain? How do you even know that you are repressing a memory if you are repressing it? Are you saying that we have free will because we are not perfect recording devices? Do people with photographic memory lack free will?

(16-07-2013 07:48 PM)I and I Wrote:  We can see the same documentary and write a different paper about it because of what I said above.

We can see the same documentary and write a different paper because both have different genetics and different experiences, hence different thought processes. A dog can watch the documentary and eat your paper, that doesn't give you or the dog freewill.

Genetics has nothing to do with what you do or don't remember.

Nobody remembers every thing about every experience in their life, bits and pieces are left out, two different brains will remember more vividly different aspects of the same event for many reasons as you and I already stated (except for genetics)

One can easily choose what to pay attention to in a story and suppress other things that others might not suppress when remembered.

Example: the Cuban missile crisis was
A. Evil commits just doing things because they are evil.

Or

B. the soviets were responding nukes recently put in turkey by the U.S. aimed at the soviets.

Some people suppress one or the other, or forget one or the other, completely altering ones view point.
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17-07-2013, 12:06 PM
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating
(17-07-2013 11:22 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(16-07-2013 08:09 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  I don't follow at all.


Positive and negative are subjective, and unrealistically polar. Positive/negative for who or what? What parts of the brain do you perceive to be positive/negative?

In any event how do you know if you are suppressing a memory because you chose to do so with your 'free will' and not because some sort of trauma triggered an electrochemical survival response from your brain? How do you even know that you are repressing a memory if you are repressing it? Are you saying that we have free will because we are not perfect recording devices? Do people with photographic memory lack free will?


We can see the same documentary and write a different paper because both have different genetics and different experiences, hence different thought processes. A dog can watch the documentary and eat your paper, that doesn't give you or the dog freewill.

Genetics has nothing to do with what you do or don't remember.

Nobody remembers every thing about every experience in their life, bits and pieces are left out, two different brains will remember more vividly different aspects of the same event for many reasons as you and I already stated (except for genetics)

One can easily choose what to pay attention to in a story and suppress other things that others might not suppress when remembered.

Example: the Cuban missile crisis was
A. Evil commits just doing things because they are evil.

Or

B. the soviets were responding nukes recently put in turkey by the U.S. aimed at the soviets.

Some people suppress one or the other, or forget one or the other, completely altering ones view point.

If genetics has nothing to do with what I remember perhaps you can get my cat to tell you what I had for lunch on Monday.

Opinion A is largely held by people in US friendly countries seeing/reading US friendly propaganda. Opinion B is largely held by people in USSR friendly countries seeing/reading USSR friendly propaganda. The opinions are formed based on location, upbringing and external influence and are not evidence of freewill.

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17-07-2013, 01:23 PM (This post was last modified: 17-07-2013 01:26 PM by Logica Humano.)
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating
(15-07-2013 07:06 PM)Koolay Wrote:  I have always considered determinism to be completely irrational for the following reason:

If a determinist is trying to convince me to change my mind and accept determinism, then he or she is accepting that I have free will and can choose between accepting the two theories.

In other words, they fail their own test of logic.

Who is to say that our confrontation and ultimate conclusion upon presentation of evidence for determinism is not predetermined as a result of centillions of natural variables?
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17-07-2013, 01:57 PM
Determinism Is Self Defeating
(17-07-2013 12:06 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  
(17-07-2013 11:22 AM)I and I Wrote:  Genetics has nothing to do with what you do or don't remember.

Nobody remembers every thing about every experience in their life, bits and pieces are left out, two different brains will remember more vividly different aspects of the same event for many reasons as you and I already stated (except for genetics)

One can easily choose what to pay attention to in a story and suppress other things that others might not suppress when remembered.

Example: the Cuban missile crisis was
A. Evil commits just doing things because they are evil.

Or

B. the soviets were responding nukes recently put in turkey by the U.S. aimed at the soviets.

Some people suppress one or the other, or forget one or the other, completely altering ones view point.

If genetics has nothing to do with what I remember perhaps you can get my cat to tell you what I had for lunch on Monday.

Opinion A is largely held by people in US friendly countries seeing/reading US friendly propaganda. Opinion B is largely held by people in USSR friendly countries seeing/reading USSR friendly propaganda. The opinions are formed based on location, upbringing and external influence and are not evidence of freewill.

Perhaps you can explain how genetics has any role in WHAT you remember.
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17-07-2013, 02:06 PM
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating
(17-07-2013 01:57 PM)I and I Wrote:  Perhaps you can explain how genetics has any role in WHAT you remember.

Perhaps you can explain to me how it can not?

Your DNA IS YOU, it is what makes you, you, as opposed to say a frog, or a velociraptor or a bit of fungus, it is your blueprint. Without your DNA you would not even exist. It is responsible not only for your memory capacity but every other aspect of your being.

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17-07-2013, 02:23 PM
Determinism Is Self Defeating
(17-07-2013 02:06 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  
(17-07-2013 01:57 PM)I and I Wrote:  Perhaps you can explain how genetics has any role in WHAT you remember.

Perhaps you can explain to me how it can not?

Your DNA IS YOU, it is what makes you, you, as opposed to say a frog, or a velociraptor or a bit of fungus, it is your blueprint. Without your DNA you would not even exist. It is responsible not only for your memory capacity but every other aspect of your being.

What the hell does DNA have to do with having any role as to WHAT one remembers or doesn't remember.

Explain the process....

You are confusing reduction with deduction. Example: my hands have DNA, my hands are typing....DNA is having a role as to WHAT I TYPE. This is complete bullshit and a non scientific reduction of lumping facts together.

The DNA in my hand has nothing to do with what I am typing, just like DNA has nothing to do with WHAT one forgets or remembers.

Keep in mind that your opinions on on genetics mentioned above are shared by no geneticist in the field today.
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17-07-2013, 02:34 PM
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating
(17-07-2013 02:23 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(17-07-2013 02:06 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  Perhaps you can explain to me how it can not?

Your DNA IS YOU, it is what makes you, you, as opposed to say a frog, or a velociraptor or a bit of fungus, it is your blueprint. Without your DNA you would not even exist. It is responsible not only for your memory capacity but every other aspect of your being.

What the hell does DNA have to do with having any role as to WHAT one remembers or doesn't remember.

Explain the process....

You are confusing reduction with deduction. Example: my hands have DNA, my hands are typing....DNA is having a role as to WHAT I TYPE. This is complete bullshit and a non scientific reduction of lumping facts together.

The DNA in my hand has nothing to do with what I am typing, just like DNA has nothing to do with WHAT one forgets or remembers.

Keep in mind that your opinions on on genetics mentioned above are shared by no geneticist in the field today.

Dude WTF are you talking about anymore?

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17-07-2013, 04:06 PM
RE: Determinism Is Self Defeating
(17-07-2013 02:34 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  
(17-07-2013 02:23 PM)I and I Wrote:  What the hell does DNA have to do with having any role as to WHAT one remembers or doesn't remember.

Explain the process....

You are confusing reduction with deduction. Example: my hands have DNA, my hands are typing....DNA is having a role as to WHAT I TYPE. This is complete bullshit and a non scientific reduction of lumping facts together.

The DNA in my hand has nothing to do with what I am typing, just like DNA has nothing to do with WHAT one forgets or remembers.

Keep in mind that your opinions on on genetics mentioned above are shared by no geneticist in the field today.

Dude WTF are you talking about anymore?

I think he is stating the obvious in that DNA does not formulate the memories one possesses as a result of experience and interaction.

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