Determinism and individual accountability
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26-07-2012, 02:16 PM
RE: Determinism and individual accountability
(26-07-2012 02:09 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(26-07-2012 01:58 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Ironically, quantum mechanics is one of the best prospects for a genuinely deterministic theory in modern times!

http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0212095

Tongue

Naaah.No

Uh-huh! Yes

Besides, peeps who try to link QM directly to philosophy are full of woo. Are you woo too? Big Grin

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26-07-2012, 02:23 PM
RE: Determinism and individual accountability
(26-07-2012 02:16 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(26-07-2012 02:09 PM)Chas Wrote:  Naaah.No

Uh-huh! Yes

Besides, peeps who try to link QM directly to philosophy are full of woo. Are you woo too? Big Grin

Woo? ME? HahahahahahahahahahaLaughat

No, QM denies the Newtonian clockwork universe, that's all.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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26-07-2012, 03:02 PM (This post was last modified: 26-07-2012 03:37 PM by Atothetheist.)
RE: Determinism and individual accountability
(26-07-2012 11:13 AM)Theofrak Wrote:  
(26-07-2012 10:43 AM)kim Wrote:  Well, what do you mean by retributive punishment? Are you referring to the death penalty? Personally, I think that the death penalty is just another way to side step responsibility, both as a society and as a human being.

I could elaborate but I'm uncertain to what you refer. Shy

The death penalty is an example of retributive punishment, but the concept is broader. See this for a dicussion of retributive justice. Modern alternatives to retributive measures include psychiatric imprisonment, restorative justice and transformative justice.

As is probably clear from the OP, I am a determinist. Free will, I believe, is an illusion. Nevertheless, I, like everyone else, proceeds as if we had free will. Determinism is often confused with pre-determinism or fatalism. What it really means is that everything that happens is based on conditions such that, given then, nothing else could happen. This includes my decisions from moment to moment. All of my experiences up to that point, all of the environmental, genetic, social, etc. forces make my decision for me. The "me" in my brain is simply creating a narrative to explain the decisions that my brain, like a computer, was making according to a set of inputs.

Because I believe the universe is deterministic, I believe it is ridiculous to "punish" someone for their acts. Separate them from society, rehabilitate them, whatever, but not punishment.

The gipper's point is the antithesis of this. Society (and presumably everything else but the individual's "free will") is not to blame for crime. Punish the individual because they violated what they knew in their hearts to contradict a universal moral law. This is what I objected to in Reagan's quote.
Sorry, but now I am very very bothered.

To say we are predetermined to Sin, to doubt, to love, to hope, to cry, to die, etc... Devalues the circumstances around, and attributed to the things that made you do things like that.

With predeterminism, You ( the person commiting the act) aren't responsible for jack shit. You aren't responsible to breaking a window, making your mother cry, making your mother laugh, getting a girlfriend, feeling joy, feeling sadness, etc.

We are NOTHING but tools used by God, for his own pleasure.

This, I am sorry to say, is a very real attack on human dignity, morality, ingenuity, the credibility of love ( it isn't you that loves your wife,gf, partner...Its God making you love.), and many, many things.

It is sad to hear that people believe that we COULDN'T, and DIDN'T come up with these things. To say we are nothing unless we are handholded, and predetermined to be something is monostrous, destructive, and harmful to the minds of children.

What if a women was raped, and she believed she was predetermined to this fate, and, worse still, God was doing the predetermination? She wouldn't fight it, she would never fight back, or try to call for help.

God will take care of her ( Blatent Sarcasm)

It is a shame, and a very grave one, to allow humans, fellow brothers and sisters in genetics, to think we are NOTHING. That We couldn't have achieved ANYTHING by ourselves.

Fuck that shit, I am responsible for my actions, and am not predestined to make such actions, because that would not make me responsible....

I would be a mere toy, only to be played with.


This isn't an responce to you, more of a rant agianst people who believe we have no say in our actions.... It may not be what you believe, but this issue is important, and I treat it as an important part of my views. Nobody is making us do anything, we are accountable.

And yes, this was said with emotion.... But thats because I knew a friend that thought to the contrary, and lost his will to live.

Since he wanted to commit suicide, he thought God wanted him to do it, and he said so himself.
He thought that was part of God's plan. I sincerely hope he was wrong.

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26-07-2012, 04:09 PM
RE: Determinism and individual accountability
(26-07-2012 03:02 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  It is a shame, and a very grave one, to allow humans, fellow brothers and sisters in genetics, to think we are NOTHING.
Fuck that shit

When a person dies, aren't they then nothing?
Why does it matter if in the end every man woman and child will be nothing again?

Are you going to make up some artificial purpose? Pretend that things matter while you're alive?

Good luck Drinking Beverage

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

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26-07-2012, 04:20 PM
RE: Determinism and individual accountability
(26-07-2012 04:09 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(26-07-2012 03:02 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  It is a shame, and a very grave one, to allow humans, fellow brothers and sisters in genetics, to think we are NOTHING.
Fuck that shit

When a person dies, aren't they then nothing?
Why does it matter if in the end every man woman and child will be nothing again?

Are you going to make up some artificial purpose? Pretend that things matter while you're alive?

Good luck Drinking Beverage
Why does it matter, life is precious! This life is all we have, and we are accountable to make it enjoyable and good.

Once we lose life, we lose us.... At the end, I would rather have a good life, then a bad one. I would rather realize that I am loved, rather than see that I am alone, on my deathbed.

Life is what YOU make it, not what GOD makes it.

Things do matter, because we are accountable for our actions, and our actions affect other people, who have just as much as a right to live, and be happy as I do.

The purpose of life is simple: To benefit as much people as possible, and to appreciate the fact that we are responisible for our actions.

There is nothing artifical about that statement.

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26-07-2012, 07:19 PM
RE: Determinism and individual accountability
Theist sayin' atheist has no purpose; that's a new one. Blink

We live for each other. Artifice is using a fabricated ideal, such as god, to elevate my purpose over our purpose. My purpose is to love Gwyneth Paltrow, where this indirect method of expression is... you know... less felonious than the alternative. Big Grin

And if I go die right now, there'll still be that fucking John and his dang Gwynnies, kicking it right here. Same as it ever was.

As for determination and despair, why, that's absurd. Prolly four thousand determinants pushing my fingers across these keys. I mention the Gwynnies 'cause she's the most adorable one. Heart

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26-07-2012, 07:19 PM
RE: Determinism and individual accountability
(26-07-2012 04:20 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Once we lose life, we lose us.... At the end, I would rather have a good life, then a bad one.

The purpose of life is simple: To benefit as much people as possible, and to appreciate the fact that we are responisible for our actions.

There is nothing artifical about that statement.

Considering that everyone ends at death, and we lose ourselves at that time, then yes, I see this idea as very artificial and temporary.

No matter which way you put it, talking about purpose as a human being while having an ultimate end where you lose yourself -
You're still playing pretend purpose.

It's also interesting you say "I would rather"
When honestly, once you're dead, you wouldn't rather anything...
Consider

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

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26-07-2012, 07:32 PM (This post was last modified: 26-07-2012 07:35 PM by Atothetheist.)
RE: Determinism and individual accountability
(26-07-2012 07:19 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(26-07-2012 04:20 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Once we lose life, we lose us.... At the end, I would rather have a good life, then a bad one.

The purpose of life is simple: To benefit as much people as possible, and to appreciate the fact that we are responisible for our actions.

There is nothing artifical about that statement.

Considering that everyone ends at death, and we lose ourselves at that time, then yes, I see this idea as very artificial and temporary.

No matter which way you put it, talking about purpose as a human being while having an ultimate end where you lose yourself -
You're still playing pretend purpose.

It's also interesting you say "I would rather"
When honestly, once you're dead, you wouldn't rather anything...
Consider

Cearly I am not getting through to you.

At the end, I mean when I look back at my life, and come to terms with my soon to be death.

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26-07-2012, 07:40 PM
RE: Determinism and individual accountability
(26-07-2012 07:32 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Cearly I am not getting through to you.

At the end, I mean when I look back at my life, and come to terms with my soon to be death.

I quite understand what you're saying.
What I don't understand is why that matters.
Looking back at your life before you die?
A good life lived?
Why does it matter when you actually go from alive to dead?

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

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26-07-2012, 07:40 PM
RE: Determinism and individual accountability
I wrote a long ass post. Got deleted. Here's the fuming mad abridged version.

Reagan is full of shit. All of developmental psychology points to multiple determinants, not single determinants. The Victorian notion of absolute control of our willpower and actions has been debunked. Things are complex. Anyone who says otherwise is selling something. This is not to say that a law breaker has no responsibility, but that if we're looking for causes or cures, we gotta go a fuck of a lot deeper.

As for punitive justice, it's all based on the notion that humans are flawed. Our laws outlaw behaviours that we're all capable of and tell us that only the broken people break them and that the rest of us good "law abiding" people could never possibly break them because we're not broken; and being broken is bad m'kay so pity and or revile the broken. It's full of shit. That nonsense is the basis of salvationism. It's also been the way we've done things since Hammurabi.

Restorative justice is older than punitive justice and makes way more sense. It assumes that we're all not only capable of everything, but that we're prone to everything. We can be kind and cruel and giving and selfish. Someone, at some point, is gonna fuck shit up. Guaranteed. Instead of blaming them for something we all do and pretending that there's something wrong with them, the point is to determine how to restore harmony to the group so everyone can move forward together. This system is diametrically opposed to our punitive system.

The rules governing humans and societies are mechanistic but not deterministic. Mechanistic: they allow us to understand and make some predictions, but not deterministic: psychopathy doesn't doom someone to serial killing.

Bottom line: our system says some people are broken and we gotta punish them for it. That's how our system works. Throw as many band aids on it as you like, it's a BS system. But it's what we're dealing with so we gotta pretty up that pig.

So no single thing caused this guy to shoot up that theatre. It's complex. People will try to tell you it is simple. Tell them to fuck off.
.
I hope that made some sense. I'm still fuming that the detailed post got deleted. Calm blue ocean. Calm blue ocean.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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