Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
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23-12-2013, 07:43 AM
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
(23-12-2013 07:23 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  And those choices depend on the arbitrary cycle of cause&effect.

Cause and effect is neither typically cyclical and never arbitrary. If cause and effect were arbitrary then science would be impossible.

Also, if you continue to post gifs--animated or static--I will add you to my ignore list. I have no interest in reading the posts of a moron that is impressed with his ability to use "[img][/img]"

Are you a 12-year-old? Did that gif really add anything to your response that couldn't have been expressed using plain text?
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23-12-2013, 08:11 AM
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
(22-12-2013 04:00 AM)Stevil Wrote:  with my analogy and argument it is not important whether there is a programmer or not. What is important is that there is a very real physical constraint such that no options are available. With a program the rules are written and the state flow must progress in accordance.

Well the analogy doesn't work because it fails to capture the salient details of human agency. The analogy obfuscates rather than clarifies.

Quote:With reality the physical forces are predictably defining the rules of the next future event given the current state.

Yes that is determinism and for the 20th time, I agree that determinism is true and I add that it is also necessary for science, planning and moral responsibility.

The free-will in that deterministic scheme is that the free agent does what (s)he wants. Your question "where is the choice?" can be answered in three ways:

(1) the choice is that the agent is free from external impediment or internal compulsion;
(2) the choice is that the result was not fatalistically determined, had the agent's wants been different a different choice would have followed; and
(3) the notion of choice in any other sense besides (1) and (2) is incoherent.
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23-12-2013, 08:29 AM
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
(23-12-2013 07:23 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(22-12-2013 03:25 PM)black_squirrel Wrote:  The existence of chairs is bloody obvious, because we see them all the time.
Yes and i don't see how it has anything to do with an abstract concept which actually is very subjective.
Quote:It is the same for free will.
No it isn't Chair exists in physical reality.. Free will is merely an abstract concept with no basis in the physical reality.
What does it mean that a chair is real? It means that you can observe it
one way or another. Indeed, you can see a chair. The same with free will.
We can see that people make choices, and we also recognize that we
cannot reduce these choices to external circumstances (at least
not with current knowledge or technology, and we probably never will).
So there you have free will. Free will is not matter itself, but it is related
to matter. Namely it is related to the brain that is made of matter.
Thoughts are not matter either, but that does not mean that thoughts
are not real. We observe thoughts all the time. In fact, as Descartes put it,
"i think, therefore I am.". The observation of thought is the basis
of our existence. Nothing is more real than our thoughts and our direct
observations.

Free will is like thoughts. It is real, but not matter.
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23-12-2013, 10:40 AM (This post was last modified: 23-12-2013 11:52 AM by IndianAtheist.)
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
(23-12-2013 07:43 AM)Chippy Wrote:  Do everyone a favour and just shut the fuck up with your "strawmanning" claims and read closely what is written.
HA HA HA HA yeah right if you keep misrepresenting my original arguments then you can go fuck yourself.
Quote:pseudo-neuroscientific argument which you have quietly dropped
Not sure if you just love straw-manning or just plain retarded eitherway its not my original argument neither do i have any intent on playing stupid word games with you.

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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23-12-2013, 11:16 AM (This post was last modified: 23-12-2013 01:04 PM by IndianAtheist.)
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
(23-12-2013 08:29 AM)black_squirrel Wrote:  What does it mean that a chair is real? It means that you can observe it
one way or another. Indeed, you can see a chair. The same with free will.
the chair argument is a red herring it doesn't have anything to do with an abstract concept.
Quote:Thoughts are not matter either
They're made of neural impulses so yeah it does exist its kinda like electricity,your thoughts are processed in your frontal cortex.
Quote:Free will is like thoughts. It is real, but not matter.
Okay.. so free will is just a choice ? if Free will is just a choice then yes it exists.. but if you're suggesting that that choice was made without any causal factors involved then you've got to explain to me how brain is free from the physical laws.

EDIT:This cartoon shows the fallacy of free will.
[Image: dilbert-free-will.png]

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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23-12-2013, 01:32 PM (This post was last modified: 23-12-2013 01:53 PM by Free.)
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
(23-12-2013 11:16 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(23-12-2013 08:29 AM)black_squirrel Wrote:  What does it mean that a chair is real? It means that you can observe it
one way or another. Indeed, you can see a chair. The same with free will.
the chair argument is a red herring it doesn't have anything to do with an abstract concept.
Quote:Thoughts are not matter either
They're made of neural impulses so yeah it does exist its kinda like electricity,your thoughts are processed in your frontal cortex.
Quote:Free will is like thoughts. It is real, but not matter.
Okay.. so free will is just a choice ? if Free will is just a choice then yes it exists.. but if you're suggesting that that choice was made without any causal factors involved then you've got to explain to me how brain is free from the physical laws.

EDIT:This cartoon shows the fallacy of free will.
[Image: dilbert-free-will.png]

Dude ...

Reality is all that which can be conclusively determined to exist via observation through one means or another.

Free will has been defined to you ad nausium, and the consensus is clear. It is demonstrated and observed as being the ability to make choices.

You, on the other hand, cannot even demonstrate that the subconscious mind even exists, nor can you demonstrate that determinism/randomness/indeterminism/what-the-fuck-ever even exists. They are all theories, and therefore NOTHING is conclusive in that respect.

Therefore, even the most intellectually inept person would understand that according to the current state of our knowledge, free will exists for the very simple reason that we can observe it being exercised.

So save your fucking bullshit and and logical fallacies for the clueless, because on this forum you are intellectually out-matched by all the posters who have engaged in this discussion. That point has been made abundantly clear.

Give it up. You suck. It's that simple.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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23-12-2013, 02:02 PM
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
This has been a fun read.

Well done everyone.

I just thought I'd add this to mix for those who have said that we are our brains:

We have two brains (processors).

Carry on.




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23-12-2013, 07:17 PM
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
(23-12-2013 11:16 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(23-12-2013 08:29 AM)black_squirrel Wrote:  What does it mean that a chair is real? It means that you can observe it
one way or another. Indeed, you can see a chair. The same with free will.
the chair argument is a red herring it doesn't have anything to do with an abstract concept.
Neither chairs or free will are abstract concepts. Molecules are
an abstract concept, because we cannot directly observe them. We know of their existence indirectly, from a physical model that explains chemical properties of matter.
Quote:
Quote:Thoughts are not matter either
They're made of neural impulses so yeah it does exist its kinda like electricity,your thoughts are processed in your frontal cortex.
Quote:Free will is like thoughts. It is real, but not matter.
Okay.. so free will is just a choice ? if Free will is just a choice then yes it exists.. but if you're suggesting that that choice was made without any causal factors involved then you've got to explain to me how brain is free from the physical laws.
Free will is the ability to make choices independently. Not independent
from brain activity of course, because free will is brain activity. But independent
of other factors, such as the influence of other people, the person's environment etc.
Quote:EDIT:This cartoon shows the fallacy of free will.
[Image: dilbert-free-will.png]
This is the strawman known as Dilbert.
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23-12-2013, 07:20 PM
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
The title of this thread reminds me of Britney Spears song Slave 4 U.

Quote:What's practical is logical. What the hell, who cares?
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23-12-2013, 09:28 PM
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
(23-12-2013 11:16 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  EDIT:This cartoon shows the fallacy of free will.

So you have no argument. A metaphor and a cartoon strip don't constitue an argument.
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