Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
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23-12-2013, 09:52 PM
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
(23-12-2013 11:16 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  They're made of neural impulses so yeah it does exist its kinda like electricity,

A neural impulse is an electrical discharge, it is electricity--it's not "kinda like electricity" it is electricity. And an electrical discharge is not a thought. If an electrical discharge were a thought then a Van de Graaf generator can think.

Quote:your thoughts are processed in your frontal cortex.

Thoughts are created by your brain and "processed" by many parts of your brain. The brain is not a personal computer motherboard with a CPU. The brain does not have a Von Neumann architecture.

Quote:Okay.. so free will is just a choice ? if Free will is just a choice then yes it exists.. but if you're suggesting that that choice was made without any causal factors involved then you've got to explain to me how brain is free from the physical laws.

Free-will doesn't require that a "choice was made without any causal factors involved".
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24-12-2013, 02:31 AM
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
(23-12-2013 07:17 PM)black_squirrel Wrote:  Neither chairs or free will are abstract concepts.
If a chair isn't an abstract concept then please tell me how big a chair is?
How much does it weigh?
What is it made of?


Please don't say "A chair can be made of...", "A chair can weigh..."
I want to know precisely what a chair is known objectively to be made of or what it is known objectively to weigh.

We know what a hydrogen atom is made of, we know what it weighs, because it is a physical item.
But "chair" is an abstract concept, same thing as a circle. We can't know objectively how big a circle is because there is no physical item which is a circle.
Objects may be in the shape of a circle and the way we use language is loose. We can say that a wheel is a circle, but really it is just in the shape of a circle.
When we say that an object is a chair, what we mean is that it conforms to the shape and purpose of the abstract concept of a chair.
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24-12-2013, 05:00 AM
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
(24-12-2013 02:31 AM)Stevil Wrote:  If a chair isn't an abstract concept then please tell me how big a chair is?
How much does it weigh?
What is it made of?

The word chair can refer to the abstract concept of a chair or a specific instantiation of a chair, i.e. an actual tangible chair. Both you and BS are correct.
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24-12-2013, 06:05 AM (This post was last modified: 24-12-2013 06:33 AM by IndianAtheist.)
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
(23-12-2013 07:17 PM)black_squirrel Wrote:  Neither chairs or free will are abstract concepts.
Yes a chair is an also abstract concept but it has a physical basis in reality whereas Free will doesn't.

In short not many people agree on the one definition for the same word.
[Image: Two-Stage-Taxonomy-25.gif]
Quote:because free will is brain activity.
Well that way i can also say that other nerve impulses are free will too ?
Quote:But independent of other factors, such as the influence of other people, the person's environment etc.
That's INSANE ! how can you say that ? people and environment do not influence your brain ? brain is taking input form the outside world how is that NOT influence from the outside world !?

Are you saying that your brain's activity takes place on an another plane of reality?
Quote:This is the strawman known as Dilbert.
Well it shows the obvious fallacy that "Free will" is NOT a part of your brain which is exempt from cause&effects and the natural laws of physical reality.

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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24-12-2013, 06:23 AM
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
(23-12-2013 09:28 PM)Chippy Wrote:  So you have no argument. A metaphor and a cartoon strip don't constitue an argument.
You're a contortionist you distort my stance on the subject and as far you're concerned you're on the ignore list with @Free so bugger off snob! i'm not obliged to argue with you.

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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24-12-2013, 06:54 AM
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
IndianA,
I think you need to re-read this thread from the beginning.

It could be a language issue but I think you have misunderstood what Chippy is saying.

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05-01-2014, 06:55 AM
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
I know I arrived a little late to the party here but this is a topic that I am interested in, so I am hoping that someone can point me in the direction of further development. My interest in philosophy is a personal pastime and my reading on philosophical subjects is self directed, I have no academic certification (so be gentle haha). Okay, I clawed my way through this thread and my current stance on free will is this; I think that every experience we have from birth has an impact on how we react with our environment and shapes the choices that we make thereafter. IMO Life is an constant domino line of causality in which our minds are shaped by the antecedent conditions of our individual experiences. I think we are just products of our perception of our environment. Obviously the causality of the decisions that we make will further shape our minds as we will create events for ourselves as life goes on and we interact with our environment, but ultimately the events that we create via our choices are just part of a chain of events started by our environment in the first place. My issue with this view is that it is seemingly infallible as it cannot be tested... Well... Not without some cruel, inhumane experiments on cloned people lol (I am just being silly now... Blame caffeine)
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05-01-2014, 08:01 PM
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
(05-01-2014 06:55 AM)Seldon Wrote:  I know I arrived a little late to the party here but this is a topic that I am interested in, so I am hoping that someone can point me in the direction of further development.

Start with Daniel Dennett's two books on the subject:

Freedom Evolves

Elbow Room: The Varieties of Free Will Worth Wanting

Also, search YT for Dennett's interviews and lectures on the topic.
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06-01-2014, 02:03 AM (This post was last modified: 06-01-2014 02:16 AM by Physb.)
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
I haven't read all the post in this thread. I'll still have a go at is.

Initial topic:

Determinism, Indeterminism, Free will, Does it really matter?

There are many debates regarding this subject. Free-will is a multivariant, opinion based subject that has as many 'flavors' as the human tongue can taste. Many people have a different way of tackling this subject; it is indeed a heavy topic.

Lets put this simple thought experiment: There is a girl named Mary, who is walking around her local town in search of a pair of shoes. She goes store by store and doesn't find the correct color of shoe. She passes a pastry store and smells a delicious pecan pie. She is quickly reminded of her mother baking a pecan pie in her childhood. Her mother was wearing a red t-shirt in that memory. Mary continues her never ending search for a pair of shoes and after hours of browsing, she sees a peculiar red t-shirt. She finds it attractive and decides to buy it.

There are many questions that will come out of this; but i will concentrate on a couple.

1. Has the memory of Mary's mother baking in a specific apparel could have influence Mary to buy it?
2. Can it be call free will if there is a linkage found between her decision and her memory?

Lets take this definition of Free will:
"Free will is the ability of agents to make choices unconstrained by certain factors"

There are countless of studies which have positive correlation on how external variables influence decision people make. (This is not an invitation to discuss the methods and findings, etc of the studies.)

Considering this fact, there is no such thing as Free will(see the definition above). We think we have free will but this is a mere illusion. Many of our decisions are influences by external factors.
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06-01-2014, 03:11 AM
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
(05-01-2014 08:01 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
(05-01-2014 06:55 AM)Seldon Wrote:  I know I arrived a little late to the party here but this is a topic that I am interested in, so I am hoping that someone can point me in the direction of further development.

Start with Daniel Dennett's two books on the subject:

Freedom Evolves

Elbow Room: The Varieties of Free Will Worth Wanting

Also, search YT for Dennett's interviews and lectures on the topic.


On it. Thanks mate.
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