Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
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15-12-2013, 04:47 AM
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
Quote:that's the only way "Free will" is possible lol. if you can't have a direct control over your subconscious thought process then you can never really have a free-will.

What you are proposing is logically incoherent.

Say you had some faculty that controlled your "subconscious thought process", call it SCC1. What then controls SCC1? How does SCC1 choose subconscious thought processes?
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15-12-2013, 10:21 AM
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
(15-12-2013 04:47 AM)Chippy Wrote:  What you are proposing is logically incoherent.
Well that is what "Free will" is supposed to be,if that sounds logically incoherent then free will is also logically incoherent.
Quote:Say you had some faculty that controlled your "subconscious thought process", call it SCC1. What then controls SCC1? How does SCC1 choose subconscious thought processes?
Why do you need controls for yourself ? lol do you need something to control your brain ? no it is self-automated.
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15-12-2013, 01:04 PM
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
(15-12-2013 10:21 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(15-12-2013 04:47 AM)Chippy Wrote:  What you are proposing is logically incoherent.
Well that is what "Free will" is supposed to be,if that sounds logically incoherent then free will is also logically incoherent.
I think Chippy means that your definition of free will is incoherent.
And I suppose that with "is suppose to be" you mean, what you want it to be.
Quote:
Quote:Say you had some faculty that controlled your "subconscious thought process", call it SCC1. What then controls SCC1? How does SCC1 choose subconscious thought processes?
Why do you need controls for yourself ? lol do you need something to control your brain ? no it is self-automated.
The brain is self-automated? So it is free? So we have free will?
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15-12-2013, 01:45 PM
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
(15-12-2013 04:29 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(15-12-2013 04:12 AM)DLJ Wrote:  But presumably this is not the view of the deity-driven dogma-dealers.

The "deity-driven dogma-dealers" fall into two broad camps but they are both unified in their support of incompatiblism:

Incompatibilism #1: Free-will is incompatible with determinism and humans are entirely determined, e.g. reformed/Calvinist tradition

Incompatibilism #2: Free-will is incompatible with determinism and humans have some type of free-will (which they gain by virtue of the soul/Holy Spirit), e.g. Arminianism.

Quote:Can you point me in the direction of the counter-argument so that I can recognise it when I see it.

The incompatibilism is the first step of their argument. They will define free-will in contra-causal terms because that is incompatible with determinism. Then they will argue either that contra-causal free-will is impossible or that it is impossible without some special supernatural faculty.

Thanks, chief.

I'll get back to you once I've got my head around that.

Dodgy You might not be hearing from me for some time.

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15-12-2013, 02:05 PM
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
(15-12-2013 02:18 AM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  I suppose I should clarify my question in the title. I understand that pinpointing one of these ideas as true would have huge implications on a wide scope of topics, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm focusing on our experience with reality in relation to these concepts.

Suppose you visited a number of different universes; some deterministic, some indeterministic, and some free-will based. My question is: would we experience them differently, or would they all appear to operate the same to us? I personally don't think we could notice any differences since we perceive time as linear, and therefore can't test any hypotheses through measuring different outcomes.

This is a good question. Our perception of the causes and the choice factor is limited.
I think though that an entirely deterministic universe would basically be a lifeless one where conscious thought was impossible. In that case, there would be no concept of "experience".
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15-12-2013, 02:06 PM
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
(15-12-2013 01:45 PM)DLJ Wrote:  I'll get back to you once I've got my head around that.

Dodgy You might not be hearing from me for some time.

Try Freedom Evolves by Daniel Dennett . ... I haven't made it through it yet, but it's in there... and I Blink ... it's starting to gel for me.

It's one I will need to be going over a few times though, before it becomes a set thing that I can use anywhere.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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15-12-2013, 02:35 PM
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
(15-12-2013 02:18 AM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  Suppose you visited a number of different universes; some deterministic, some indeterministic, and some free-will based. My question is: would we experience them differently, or would they all appear to operate the same to us?
If we consider "free will" to be the mind controlling the brain rather than the brain controlling the mind then I would think that this would lead to a magical existence. No longer would the mind be constrained to material existence and material causes. The mind itself would be able to cause events supernaturally. This would lead us to having the abilities of telekinesis, mind control and mind reading.

If existence where indeterministic at the macro level then everything would be random thus there would be no order. This means no stars, no planets, no life.

If existence where deterministic, even at the micro level, then stars wouldn't shine as there would be no quantum tunnelling, there would be no radioactive decay, no quantum fluctuations, no uncertainty principle. Quite possibly this may mean there would be no existence.
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15-12-2013, 06:09 PM
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
(15-12-2013 02:06 PM)kim Wrote:  ...
Try Freedom Evolves by Daniel Dennett . ... I haven't made it through it yet, but it's in there... and I Blink ... it's starting to gel for me.

It's one I will need to be going over a few times though, before it becomes a set thing that I can use anywhere.


Is there a five minute, YouTube version?
Big Grin

(15-12-2013 02:35 PM)Stevil Wrote:  ...
Quite possibly this may mean there would be no existence.

Looks like Girly's been right all along.
Blink

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15-12-2013, 06:24 PM
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
I heard that if one were to visit North Korea, shit looks pretty dang different. So, there you go. Angel

[Image: klingon_zps7e68578a.jpg]
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15-12-2013, 09:56 PM
RE: Determinism, indeterminism, free will. Does it really matter?
(15-12-2013 10:21 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Well that is what "Free will" is supposed to be,if that sounds logically incoherent then free will is also logically incoherent.

No, your definition of free-will is logically incoherent.

Quote:Why do you need controls for yourself ? lol do you need something to control your brain ? no it is self-automated.

You are the one that is separating your brain from your self so ask yourself that question. You implied that if you were aware of your subsconscious processes you would be able to control your brain. That was your contribution to this thread.

You proposed that you would need access to your subconscious thought processes to have free-will. I explained to you that all that would achieve is to defer the initial problem. Assume you had an app that revealed all of your subsconscious thought processes. How would you choose which thoughts to have? Any criteria that you provide for selecting which of the subsconscious ideas you will allow implies that your decision is determined rather than freely chosen. If you choose at random then how would that be consistent with any conception of free-will?

What does "self-automated" mean? Is the brain an uncauses cause?
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