Determinism is now a religion.
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21-02-2014, 09:37 PM (This post was last modified: 21-02-2014 10:02 PM by GirlyMan.)
Determinism is now a religion.
So I been taking this class over at coursera called Unpredictable? Randomness, Chance and Free Will
and what I got so far is determinism has been relegated to a matter of belief not only not supported by evidence, but fundamentally untenable. ... Determinism, like dualism, goes in my trash bin. Tongue

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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21-02-2014, 10:08 PM
RE: Determinism is now a religion.
(21-02-2014 09:37 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  So I been taking this class over at coursera called Unpredictable? Randomness, Chance and Free Will
and what I got so far is determinism has been relegated to a matter of belief not only not supported by evidence, but fundamentally untenable. ... Determinism, like dualism, is in my trash bin. Tongue

That looks like an interesting course; I'm not sure I am familiar with the argument that you appear to be referring to. Randomness is an ontological feature of the universe and not merely an epistemic limitation of humans but I'm not sure that it entails that determinism is entirely false. Were it so then no science would be possible. The idea of scientific evidence that determinism is entirely false appears to me to be self-refuting.
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21-02-2014, 10:19 PM
RE: Determinism is now a religion.
Well one dude who studied quantum physics says that a movement of electron can't be predicted but it could be that it is determined. So determinism may be true but we can never find out if it is or not.
Don't know if what he said about electron predictions is bullshit or not though.
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21-02-2014, 10:24 PM
RE: Determinism is now a religion.
(21-02-2014 10:19 PM)donotwant Wrote:  Well one dude who studied quantum physics says that a movement of electron can't be predicted but it could be that it is determined. So determinism may be true but we can never find out if it is or not.
Don't know if what he said about electron predictions is bullshit or not though.

Quantum phenomena at best demonstrate that subatomic particles behave in an indeterministic manner they don't show that all determinism is false. The boiling point of water--for example--is a deterministic process.
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21-02-2014, 10:28 PM
RE: Determinism is now a religion.
(21-02-2014 10:24 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
(21-02-2014 10:19 PM)donotwant Wrote:  Well one dude who studied quantum physics says that a movement of electron can't be predicted but it could be that it is determined. So determinism may be true but we can never find out if it is or not.
Don't know if what he said about electron predictions is bullshit or not though.

Quantum phenomena at best demonstrate that subatomic particles behave in an indeterministic manner they don't show that all determinism is false. The boiling point of water--for example--is a deterministic process.

What the fuck are you talking about?
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21-02-2014, 11:07 PM
RE: Determinism is now a religion.
(21-02-2014 10:08 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
(21-02-2014 09:37 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  So I been taking this class over at coursera called Unpredictable? Randomness, Chance and Free Will
and what I got so far is determinism has been relegated to a matter of belief not only not supported by evidence, but fundamentally untenable. ... Determinism, like dualism, is in my trash bin. Tongue

That looks like an interesting course; I'm not sure I am familiar with the argument that you appear to be referring to.

Scarani's lecture 7 is what I was referring to.

(21-02-2014 10:08 PM)Chippy Wrote:  Randomness is an ontological feature of the universe and not merely an epistemic limitation of humans but I'm not sure that it entails that determinism is entirely false. Were it so then no science would be possible. The idea of scientific evidence that determinism is entirely false appears to me to be self-refuting.

Not at all. If it's all just probabilistic then statistics will show you the way. Science is preserved as being the 95% confidence interval, and all is right with the world.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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21-02-2014, 11:09 PM (This post was last modified: 22-02-2014 12:11 AM by Chippy.)
RE: Determinism is now a religion.
(21-02-2014 10:28 PM)donotwant Wrote:  
(21-02-2014 10:24 PM)Chippy Wrote:  Quantum phenomena at best demonstrate that subatomic particles behave in an indeterministic manner they don't show that all determinism is false. The boiling point of water--for example--is a deterministic process.

What the fuck are you talking about?

I am talking about the fallacy of composition. Even if subatomic particles behave in an indeterministic fashion that does not entail that the objects that those particles compose also behave in an indeterministic manner. Quantum phenomena are (generally) confined to the particle scale.
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21-02-2014, 11:11 PM
RE: Determinism is now a religion.
How about brownian motion? Thing is particle movements can affect the world. So if particle movements is random the world can't be deterministic. We are talking precision here. Small things do have effect on big things.
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21-02-2014, 11:13 PM
RE: Determinism is now a religion.
(21-02-2014 11:09 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
(21-02-2014 10:28 PM)donotwant Wrote:  What the fuck are you talking about?

I am talking about the fallacy of composition. Even if subatomic particles behave in an indeterministic fashion that does not entail that the objects that those particles compose also behave in an indeterministic manner. Quantum phenomena are confined to the quantum scale.

The violation of Bell's inequality has been observed empirically on multiple macroscopic scales.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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21-02-2014, 11:18 PM
RE: Determinism is now a religion.
(21-02-2014 11:07 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Not at all. If it's all just probabilistic then statistics will show you the way. Science is preserved as being the 95% confidence interval, and all is right with the world.

That conclusion doesn't mean that is correct or even the best theory. The underdetermination of theory by evidence is a well-known issue/position in the philosophy of science. Science can be "preserved" by any number of competing theories.
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