Determinism is now a religion.
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03-03-2014, 01:01 PM
RE: Determinism is now a religion.
(03-03-2014 12:35 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Notwithstanding that there's no a priori reason to assume or even allow for determinism itself, besides naive physical intuition...

That sums it up nicely. Thumbsup

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03-03-2014, 01:32 PM
RE: Determinism is now a religion.
(03-03-2014 12:35 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Notwithstanding that there's no a priori reason to assume or even allow for determinism itself, besides naive physical intuition...

I suppose, but as soon as we decide it truly is random, our search is complete. It's the scientific equivalent of 'goddidit' - an acceptance that further understanding is simply not possible.

...but not everyone has given up the search, http://arxiv.org/abs/1301.2695, which says to me, that greater minds than mine also have yet to embrace the idea of in-determinism.

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03-03-2014, 02:12 PM
RE: Determinism is now a religion.
(03-03-2014 01:32 PM)toadaly Wrote:  I suppose, but as soon as we decide it truly is random, our search is complete. It's the scientific equivalent of 'goddidit' - an acceptance that further understanding is simply not possible.

wut.

That doesn't make any sense. No scientific conclusion is beyond reconsideration by definition.

The standard disclaimer applies: the universe is probabilistic - where "is" is taken to mean "appears, according to our best, most current, and least falsified models of the universe and its observable interactions, based on presently available data and methodology, taking into account our imperfect abilities of investigation into same and the very limits of epistemology itself, to be".

So it's kind of asinine to belabour something taken as read. Wherever did you get the bizarre misapprehension that a provisional conclusion of innate indeterminacy would somehow mean we'd all just shrug and say, "shucks, guess we won't bother investigating that anymore..." ?

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03-03-2014, 02:15 PM
RE: Determinism is now a religion.
(03-03-2014 02:12 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(03-03-2014 01:32 PM)toadaly Wrote:  I suppose, but as soon as we decide it truly is random, our search is complete. It's the scientific equivalent of 'goddidit' - an acceptance that further understanding is simply not possible.

wut.

That doesn't make any sense. No scientific conclusion is beyond reconsideration by definition.

The standard disclaimer applies: the universe is probabilistic - where "is" is taken to mean "appears, according to our best, most current, and least falsified models of the universe and its observable interactions, based on presently available data and methodology, taking into account our imperfect abilities of investigation into same and the very limits of epistemology itself, to be".

So it's kind of asinine to belabour something taken as read. Wherever did you get the bizarre misapprehension that a provisional conclusion of innate indeterminacy would somehow mean we'd all just shrug and say, "shucks, guess we won't bother investigating that anymore..." ?

...well what does *this* mean then?

Quote:Notwithstanding that there's no a priori reason to assume or even allow for determinism itself

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03-03-2014, 02:31 PM
RE: Determinism is now a religion.
(03-03-2014 02:15 PM)toadaly Wrote:  ...well what does *this* mean then?

Quote:Notwithstanding that there's no a priori reason to assume or even allow for determinism itself

There's no reason to treat determinism as a privileged concept? It's a Renaissance-era idea almost inextricably bound in origin to contemporaneous theology.

Beginning from a question - what is the nature of the universe? - and finding an answer - it is probabilistic so far as we can tell - is basically the extent of science.

Beginning with a premise - the universe should be 'deterministic' because just because (where 'determinism' is a philosophical construct not drawn from physical observation) - and applying that to every answer is... less useful.

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04-03-2014, 12:43 PM
RE: Determinism is now a religion.
(03-03-2014 01:32 PM)toadaly Wrote:  I suppose, but as soon as we decide it truly is random, our search is complete. It's the scientific equivalent of 'goddidit' - an acceptance that further understanding is simply not possible.

Nope. Just means now we gotta apply statistics and shit is all.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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