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28-08-2016, 11:28 PM
(28-08-2016 05:56 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Angel

Personally, I prefer to stay out of TTA's Politics section.

Big Grin

Well, since you've posted here anyway, maybe we could change your mind?

You don't have to get into ugly debates, but your opinion would be very valued, I think.
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28-08-2016, 11:37 PM
(28-08-2016 02:55 PM)The Dark One Wrote:  LOL!

I love you guys, I really do. You never disappoint. Oh, there are some boneheads like Ordo who are just in a weird place, but most of you are wonderful. Ordo may be too, this is a hot button issue for a lot of people.

I know what I know, which is just like you know what you know. I just know we're all wrong. Smile It makes no difference, I won't change anyone's mind, obviously, but let me explain something.

I had a bit of an...let's call it "epiphany"...the other day.

See, many, many years ago I was sitting in our methodist church watching people go through the motions of religious service, and suddenly I flashed to a scene from PBS, of natives in...I dunno, the congo maybe..dancing around a fire, chanting, waving sticks and wearing bizarre "makeup". All of a sudden those folks in that Methodist church were alien to me- they were just like those natives in loincloths with painted bodies dancing around the fire. It was all silly, nobody knew anything, they all picked their god and found ways to prove his existence in their own minds, and found ways to disprove the existence of any other gods. Then they chanted and sang and knelt in his honor, so that they could live forever and, more importantly, not burn for all eternity.
I was 12 years old, I think. I burst into uncontrollable laughter in the middle of the sermon. Methodists are pretty easy going folks, in Texas, but...this was frowned upon.
Thus my "descent" into Atheism.

I was watching TV while surfing the web the other day, and I saw "Hillary this" and "Trump that" everywhere. EVERYWHERE! I read comments below articles, people going INSANE with rage and passion, people ready to burst with the holy power coursing through their veins, as they defended their God!
Wait...what? How did we get to God? I suddenly saw all of this the same way I saw that Methodist church back in 1978.

I don't care if you agree with me, I don't care if you don't. We have no factual data about these two idiots, or at least no way to vet most of it. You think you can, often...but as a trained investigator, I can tell you that almost EVERYTHING you see about those two candidates would not stand up as evidence in a US court of law. It's all hearsay or secondhand or manufactured or biased...etc.

Think about this...fairly often, a person will go insane and do something awful...shootings, stabbings, eating their victims, raping corpses...just heinous stuff. Often those people had spouses or parents or friends in their lives who are shocked to their very cores, because they would NEVER have expected that from the person. NEVER. They had known him all their lives, the had children together, on and on and on. So those people did not know a person they literally lived with for years.

Now you have two, very obviously egocentric, people, vying for, arguably, the most powerful position on earth. They have teams of people- huge teams- whose only job is to keep their closets locked so the skeletons can't escape, to wash any smudges that come up, to put the proper spin on anything that happens. Why do you think they NEED those teams?

You honestly think you KNOW anything about either of them that hasn't been whitewashed and modified and trimmed to look pretty?

Believe what you like, it's not my problem. My life experience tells me this, so I go with it.

I would, honestly, love to agree with you about Hillary, I really would!

But then we'd ALL be wrong! Big GrinEvil_monsterCool

Sounds to me like you think having been a cop gives you any sort of understanding of what a journalist's job consists of, when you clearly have no idea. In fact one has to wonder if you even know they exist, the way you focus on what the candidates' campaigning people do as if they have the ultimate say on what shows up on the news.
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28-08-2016, 11:43 PM
(28-08-2016 03:08 PM)The Dark One Wrote:  
Quote:We disagree, because you haven't shown me how it's an illusion.

I'm sorry, me this is so self-evident that I'm not sure how to convince you. Let's say Benghazi. Do you think Hillary knowingly sacrificed those men for her own good? Why or why not? Where do you get that information you are basing that opinion on? Are you POSITIVE, bet your life on it, that your info is correct?

There is no way to answer yes. You had to be there, or see an uninterrupted video, to know for sure. There is ALOT of incentive for her to cover that up if she did do it- she would not only go to prison, but she would forever lose her shot at MOST POWERFUL WOMAN IN THE WORLD!

Do I think she is culpable? I wish I knew. Some people have testified, who were involved, against her...but there is SO much bullshit and favor passing in DC that...I just don't know.

Which is, annoyingly, my point.

I think perhaps the difference between us is that I am looking at this like it is evidence in a court of's all crap. Any judge would toss it out. We have no firsthand knowledge, nor do we have any unbiased testimony. Big Grin

We can't ever work with perfect knowledge in the public domain, so stop setting your standards so ridiculously high. Thing is, we assume everyone of them does shady stuff, but we can't do anything about it other than hope journalists do their jobs and we find out as much as possible about them in order to make a well-informed decision. But, I repeat myself, presumably all of them do it, including both current candidates. So I don't see how being suspicious of Hillary lets Trump off the hook in any way. And you're clearly supporting Trump, have some balls and say it instead of pussyfooting around the subject whenever you get called out on it.

I think you're disingenuous and not here to have an honest conversation but instead to push some sort of agenda of your own all the while pretending you're doing just the opposite. This is completely transparent to me. It's a disgraceful kind of behaviour, even if it happens not to be working very well.
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29-08-2016, 12:41 AM
(28-08-2016 05:34 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(28-08-2016 05:25 PM)Losty Wrote:  How she got the nomination is beyond me. She's no liberal. Donald Trump is the worst possible option for president ever. He is so bad, in fact, that I will vote Hilary. And that is terrifying

Hi Losty, perhaps this will make you feel a bit better about President Clinton.

First ever student commencement speaker at Wellesley College.
Distinguished graduate of Yale Law School.
Editorial board of the Yale Review of Law and Social Action.
Co-founded Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families.
Former civil litigation attorney.
Staff attorney for Children’s Defense Fund.
Faculty member in the School of Law at the University of Arkansas, Fayetteville.
Former Director of the Arkansas Legal Aid Clinic.
First female chair of the Legal Services Corporation.
First female partner at Rose Law Firm, the oldest and one of the largest law firms in Arkansas.
Twice named by The National Law Journal as one of the 100 Most Influential Lawyers in America.
Former First Lady of Arkansas.
Arkansas Woman of the Year in 1983.
Chair of the American Bar Association’s Commission on Women in the Profession.
Created Arkansas’s Home Instruction Program for Preschool Youth.
Instrumental in passage of the State Children’s Health Insurance Program.
First Lady of the United States.
Promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses.
Successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the National Institutes of Health.
Worked to investigate reports of an illness that affected veterans of the Gulf War (now recognized as Gulf War Syndrome).
Helped create the Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice.
Initiated and shepherded the Adoption and Safe Families Act.
First FLOTUS in US History to hold a postgraduate degree.
Helped create Vital Voices, an international initiative to promote the participation of women in the political processes of their countries.
Two-term New York Senator and the first ex-FLOTUS in US History to be elected to the United States Senate.
Served on five Senate committees: Budget (2001–2002), Armed Services (2003–2009), Environment and Public Works (2001–2009), Health, Education, Labor and Pensions (2001–2009) and the Special Committee on Aging.
Member of the Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe.
Leading role in investigating the health issues faced by 9/11 first responders.
Worked with Sen. Chuck Schumer of New York on securing $21.4 billion in funding for the World Trade Center redevelopment.
Former United States Secretary of State.
Brokered a ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas in 2012.
Not insane.

*OK, that last one was mine Blush
You thinking that this unsourced propaganda would make anyone feel better about a corrupt, incompetent and warmongering career politician becoming POTUS is pretty hilarious.

(28-08-2016 05:39 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Please elaborate or give me a citation so I can read up on it if you please.
Two words: Iraq War

[Image: 7oDSbD4.gif]
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29-08-2016, 12:52 AM
(29-08-2016 12:41 AM)Vosur Wrote:  You thinking that this unsourced propaganda would make anyone feel better about a corrupt, incompetent and warmongering career politician becoming POTUS is pretty hilarious.

The real tragedy is, and some people already pointed this out, that this is still preferable to a complete lunatic.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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29-08-2016, 01:31 AM
(28-08-2016 11:28 PM)excitedpenguin Wrote:  
(28-08-2016 05:56 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Angel

Personally, I prefer to stay out of TTA's Politics section.

Big Grin

Well, since you've posted here anyway, maybe we could change your mind?

You don't have to get into ugly debates, but your opinion would be very valued, I think.

Well, thank you.

tbh, I find it hard to believe that there is anyone here who is not already aware of my opinions on Murikan politics.

I'd just be repeating myself.


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29-08-2016, 01:45 AM
(28-08-2016 05:39 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(28-08-2016 05:36 PM)Losty Wrote:  None of that makes up for her shite vote record

Please elaborate or give me a citation so I can read up on it if you please.

You should be able to google her voting record..?

I just mean I don't often agree with her politically. I lean a loooot farther left than she seemed to vote

Swing with me a while, we can listen to the birds call, we can keep each other warm.
Swing with me forever, we can count up every flower, we can weather every storm.
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29-08-2016, 01:45 AM
No offense, dear penguin, but I have roughly two and a half times the life experience you do, in years experience, much more, as my cup runneth over in that department. Tongue

Quote:Not all the media is bad. You just have to search for the right kind of media to feed you your information. There are good journalists out there, who won't ever knowingly print a lie and will fact check everything they write over and over. There are also editors who check on them. There's a whole process to it. Just because some media is biased and doesn't even try to be objective doesn't mean all of it is.

We do have to rely on the media because the average citizen doesn't have the time or the specific know-how to find out about certain things that are happening in the world that the public needs to know about. You need to accept that fact and look for better sources of information.

I never claimed the media was all bad- I said they are biased. Even "good" journalists are often stymied by editors who have political agendas. I have written for two newspapers in my life, believe me. Often that good journalist doesn't get his article printed, as another not-so-good journalist wrote a more exciting story that will sell papers. It's a simple fact, based on simple economics. The same holds true- and even more so- in television, as the economic pressures are even more powerful.
The media is damaging this country, in my opinion...but it isn't every member, it's the people in charge...and a great deal of it is not out of any malice or intent, but simply a lack of responsibility and accountability. guys feel free to depend on whatever data source makes you comfortable, obviously. But you can justify it all you like, you can call it a "ridiculously high standard", whatever blows your skirts up, ladies...Big Grin Nothing changes the fact that the majority of the information the majority of the people in this country use to decide who to vote for is, at best, unverified, and at worst, fictional.

If you can remove yourself from the emotions of the race, and sit back and just will see that both sides believe data that is equally ridiculous, and they believe that particular data because it says what they want it to say. They have little, if any, proof that it is accurate. Nor do they care.

As I said in the beginning, I have no illusions that I will change anyone's mind, convert anyone to my point of view. I just found this topic interesting, and wanted to watch everybody express his or her views.

I have a great deal of life experience and education, as well as about 35 years in the workforce. I don't base my opinions on fox news, nor do I parrot political pundits. (I love alliteration, sounds so Dr Seuss) I base my opinions on my life, what I have seen, experienced, fought and nearly died for, and learned on Sesame street. You'd be surprised at the things you can learn from Sesame street.

To be perfectly honest, I have gained some respect for liberals since coming here. I respect that you are trying to improve the world, even if I think some of your methodology flawed and naive.
The one thing I really feel badly about is the tendency of many liberals to get so offended, so easily. I'm sure that's why this nasty virus called "political correctness" developed, but...I just feel so sorry for so many liberals I know, who I generally like. They give other people SO MUCH POWER over their emotions! I couldn't live like that, I really couldn't. It is so...different, from the way we live here in Texas. If you let another person get you that upset- particularly over something as silly and asinine as word choice? Well, you just gave him the keys to your brain and let him go joyriding. I can piss off an entire room full of liberals just by making a declarative statement about religion, or gender roles, or abortion, or...well, liberals! Good grief, have to stop that! (obviously I'm not talking to everyone, this isn't a catch-all) For one thing, if you want to defeat the conservatives and try to make your utopian dream a reality- if you have one- you cannot emotionally implode every time someone voices an opinion you vehemently disagree with!( "Leave Brittany alone...!" video keeps popping into my head :noSmile
I'm not converting here...I don't like the idea of a liberal government. But I also hate to see so many people just handing over their rationality because they get their widdle feelings hurt...enough! Jim-bob saying he wants to eat aborted fetuses because he heard "sting cells" can make you like superman" is annoying, but it isn't going to hurt you. Another person voicing the opinion that Hillary is an evil, abusive bitch who has her own twisted agenda does not cause you any harm relax, goddamn it.
Words have different meanings for different people...things like culture, context, even confusion...affect what people mean when they use a given word. I have seen so much energy wasted between southern republicans and northern democrats over disagreements that had a lot more to do with their language barrier than their actual belief systems...

Anyway, enough. My foray into the political thread is complete. You all still believe what you believed when we began, and I still know you're all wrong. Big Grin What an incredible waste of energy! It makes no sense for me to continue with this conversation, if you believe Einstein's definition of insanity. Bowing

Thanks, guys...if ya need me, I'll be in any thread but this one!

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29-08-2016, 02:31 AM
Sorry pal, but I don't think it's liberals that get so "easily offended", but humans in general. I constantly hear this "whiny liberals" meme repeated, among my 99% conservative family and social circles from the Deep South... right before they start to whine about everything in the book, get offended by anything they deem (by their standards) to be unpatriotic or which challenges their often-too-simplistic understanding of topics like race, history, and religion. I see about twenty whining posts from conservatives on my Facebook feed to roughly one from liberals (which is every friend I have there who's not family), if I had to guess a ratio. But it's not called whining when conservatives do it, for some reason-- the power of a memetic idea.

Mainly it's a matter of how we manage to justify our definitions of "what should be offensive". Both try to be as moral as possible, but have different ideas about what constitutes that sort of morality (it's also why it's hilarious to listen to religious people come here to tell us about "objective" morality, since most of what's in the Bible is a memetic system for enforcing a conservative social agenda among Israelites, etc) and whether or not it is necessary to speak out about particular events/items.

Liberals tend to be offended by things which harm people who are otherwise weak, which they deem to be the most moral stance, while conservatives tend to defend things like authority, tradition, and order. A really excellent book on this subject was written by Jonathan Haidt, called The Righteous Mind: Why Good People are Divided by Politics and Religion, and this author has given a number of excellent speeches on the subject which greatly helped me understand my perspective and respect that of conservatives who used to irritate me no end. I wish this information was more generally known.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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29-08-2016, 03:31 AM
Quote: I see about twenty whining posts from conservatives on my Facebook feed to roughly one from liberals

LOL Dammit RS I'm trying to leave this political hellhole of a thread! Evil_monster

I see the same thing, ratio-wise...but inverted. I think I see the problem said deep south. Texas isn't deep south...those motherfuckers are weird.Gasp

You ever had a mint julep? Sounds like a tasty, refreshing southern adult beverage, eh? NASTIEST tasting drink on earth. I'd rather drink fermented mare's milk. Blech.
Most northerners can't distinguish south from deep south, but they are worlds apart. I'm not particularly a fan of the more...fundamentalist?...deep south.

Texans (not counting transplants) don't whine. It goes against everything Texas. Hell, we don't allow our kids to whine. We get pissed when calves bawl. Dodgy

The notion of "political correctness" is a liberal one. To me...and to everyone in the south, that is from the south...political correctness is the epitome of whining. The notion that a grown man can get his feelings hurt by another person's comment is...just beyond laughable! Good grief, why would I care enough about your opinion of me to allow you the power to hurt my feelings? To me it's just so, I don't know...pussified? I don't mean that as a macho thing, we are just raised in a culture where things like that aren't real. Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me...that is a truism here, among old school Texas men at least, and really...the women just pretend that they get butt hurt for the sake of good gossip. They're actually pretty damned tough.
I honestly cannot imagine anyone outside of my immediate family hurting my feelings. Pissing me off? Sure. But hurting my feelings? Laughat I have to care about the offender's opinion before that is possible, I believe. As soon as they start treating me in an offensive manner, I lose any interest in their opinion.

I'm sure we're as hard to relate to as we find liberals to be. I much prefer our approach to life, however. I can't relate to this perpetual state of butt hurtery.... Wink Thumbsup
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