Did Dinosaurs turn to Birds? Yes! A response to AiG
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25-03-2014, 08:49 PM
Did Dinosaurs turn to Birds? Yes! A response to AiG
Hello again. Decided to go back to my roots. Lets start.

[Image: archaeopteryx_1.jpg]

"Evolutionists have long speculated that birds evolved from reptiles. At one time or another, virtually every living and extinct class of reptiles has been proposed as the ancestor of birds. The famous Darwinian apologist Thomas Huxley was the first to speculate (in the mid 1800s) that birds evolved from dinosaurs."

Really? When, because it has always been dinosaurs in science. Remember Dinosaurs were first found in the 19th Century.1

"One of the main reasons that Deinonychus and other similar theropod dinosaurs (called dromaeosaurs) seemed to be plausible ancestors to birds is that, like birds, these creatures walked solely on their hind legs and have only three digits on their hands. But as we shall see, there are many problems with transforming any dinosaur, and particularly a theropod, into a bird."

It is also because some have avian structures, like allosaurus having a wishbone.2
[Image: 06.jpeg]

"Warm-blooded vs. cold-blooded
Seemingly forgotten in all the claims that birds are essentially dinosaurs (or at least that they evolved from dinosaurs) is the fact that dinosaurs are reptiles. There are many differences between birds and reptiles, including the fact that (with precious few exceptions) living reptiles are cold-blooded creatures, while birds and mammals are warm-blooded. Indeed, even compared to most mammals, birds have exceptionally high body temperatures resulting from a high metabolic rate.
The difference between cold- and warm-blooded animals isn’t simply in the relative temperature of the blood but rather in their ability to maintain a constant body core temperature. Thus, warm-blooded animals such as birds and mammals have internal physiological mechanisms to maintain an essentially constant body temperature; they are more properly called “endothermic.” In contrast, reptiles have a varying body temperature influenced by their surrounding environment and are called “ectothermic.” An ectothermic animal can adjust its body temperature behaviorally (e.g., moving between shade and sun), even achieving higher body temperature than a so-called warm-blooded animal, but this is done by outside factors.

Alan Feduccia, an expert on birds and their evolution, has concluded that “there has never been, nor is there now, any evidence that dinosaurs were endothermic.”4 Feduccia says that despite the lack of evidence “many authors have tried to make specimens conform to the hot-blooded theropod dogma.”

First not dogma, we don't break down your church walls and force you guys to learn this, nor is it used for hate. Second, this issue is still in discussion, unlike you guys we don't make claims until we have evidence. However new research shows that dinosaurs might be endothermic.3

"Another argument for endothermy in dinosaurs is based on the eggs and assumed brood behavior of dinosaurs, but this speculation too has been challenged.3 There is in fact no theropod brooding behavior not known to occur in crocodiles and other cold-blooded living reptiles."

Dinosaur brooding is more in favor of feathers seeing as a naked animal isn't good at instillation.

"All dinosaurs are divided into two major groups based on the structure of their hips (pelvic bones): the lizard-hipped dinosaurs (saurischians) and the bird-hipped dinosaurs (ornithiscians). The main difference between the two hip structures is that the pubic bone of the bird-hipped dinosaurs is directed toward the rear (as it is in birds) rather than entirely to the front (as it is in mammals and reptiles)."

Well it depends on the theropod to avian transitional fossil you are loooking at. Archaeopteryx shows a hip that has a combination of avian and theropod hips4,While Anchiornis, would have a more theropod like one5

"One of the main lines of evidence cited by evolutionists for the evolution of birds from theropod dinosaurs is the three-fingered “hand” found in both birds and theropods. The problem is that recent studies have shown that there is a digital mismatch between birds and theropods.
Most terrestrial vertebrates have an embryological development based on the five-fingered hand. In the case of birds and theropod dinosaurs, two of the five fingers are lost (or greatly reduced) and three are retained during development of the embryo. If birds evolved from theropods, one would expect the same three fingers to be retained in both birds and theropod dinosaurs, but such is not the case. Evidence shows that the fingers retained in theropod dinosaurs are fingers 1, 2, and 3 (the “thumb” is finger 1) while the fingers retained in birds are 2, 3, and 4.5"

Again, Look at the two examples above both have unfused fingers.

"If theropod dinosaurs are the ancestors of birds, one might expect to find evidence of an avian-type lung in such dinosaurs. While fossils generally do not preserve soft tissue such as lungs, a very fine theropod dinosaur fossil (Sinosauropteryx) has been found in which the outline of the visceral cavity has been well preserved. The evidence clearly indicates that this theropod had lung and respiratory mechanics similar to that of a crocodile—not a bird.6 If theropod dinosaurs are the ancestors of birds, one might expect to find evidence of an avian-type lung in such dinosaurs. While fossils generally do not preserve soft tissue such as lungs, a very fine theropod dinosaur fossil (Sinosauropteryx) has been found in which the outline of the visceral cavity has been well preserved. The evidence clearly indicates that this theropod had lung and respiratory mechanics similar to that of a crocodile—not a bird."

Funny you bring this up. You should read more. There actually is evidence that non-avian dinosaurs had airsacs, ask Coelophisis if you don't believe me.6

"Structures described as “protofeathers” in the dinosaur fossils Sinosauropteryx and Sinithosaurus are filamentous and sometimes have interlaced structures bearing no obvious resemblance to feathers. It now appears likely that these filaments (often referred to as “dino-fuzz”) are actually connective tissue fibers (collagen) found in the deep dermal layer of the skin. Feduccia laments that “the major and most worrying problem of the feathered dinosaur hypothesis is that the integumental structures have been homologized with avian feathers on the basis of anatomically and paleontologically unsound and misleading information.”
\Structures described as “protofeathers” in the dinosaur fossils Sinosauropteryx and Sinithosaurus are filamentous and sometimes have interlaced structures bearing no obvious resemblance to feathers. It now appears likely that these filaments (often referred to as “dino-fuzz”) are actually connective tissue fibers (collagen) found in the deep dermal layer of the skin. Feduccia laments that “the major and most worrying problem of the feathered dinosaur hypothesis is that the integumental structures have been homologized with avian feathers on the basis of anatomically and paleontologically unsound and misleading information.”10

Let me start with your examples first. The feather dinosaur you talk about is not a bird ancestor. At best it may give us insight about what the first feathers would look like. Birds first appeared in the late Jurassic. Sinosauropteryx was in the late Cretaceous. So the example you gave with sinosauropteryx and confuciusornis is bad. In fact we already knew that, so why make an argument off of it?

"Complicating matters even further is the fact that true birds have been found among the Liaoning province fossils in the same layers as their presumed dinosaur ancestors. The obvious bird fossil Confuciusornis sanctus, for example, has long slender tail feathers resembling those of a modern scissor-tail flycatcher. Two taxa (Caudipteryx and Protarchaeopteryx) that were thought to be dinosaurs with true feathers are now generally conceded to be flightless birds."

Good job, a fossil that was media hyped and science didn't hype it. Next you will be telling my that Miley Cyrus disproves evolution.

"What would it prove if features common to one type of animal were found on another? Nothing. Simply put, God uses various designs with various creatures. Take the platypus, for example—a mosaic. It has several design features that are shared with other animals, and yet it is completely distinct. So if a dinosaur (or mammal) is ever found with feathers, it would call into question our human criteria for classification, not biblical veracity. What’s needed to support evolution is not an unusual mosaic of complete traits, but a trait in transition, such as a “scale-feather,” what creationist biologists would call a “sceather.”

Yes, it would imply something, espacially knowing that this was predicted before the evidence was found based on observation of avian anatomy.7. The platypus is a bad example. Seeing as all it's structures are only similar in looks(the duck "bill") or that you lie about(that it has venom as deadly as a cobra).

"If birds evolved from dinosaurs or any other reptile, then feathers must have evolved from reptilian scales. Evolutionists are so confident that feathers evolved from scales that they often claim that feathers are very similar to scales. The popular Encarta computerized encyclopedia (1997) describes feathers as a “horny outgrowth of skin peculiar to the bird but similar in structure and origin to the scales of fish and reptiles.”

Stop living in creationist land and start living in reality. It is really said they are branched structures,NOT FROM SCALES! My goodness we knew that for a long time.8

"One of the biggest dilemmas for those who want to believe that dinosaurs evolved into birds is that the so-called feathered dinosaurs found thus far are dated to be about 20 million years more recent than Archaeopteryx."

Look up AnchiornisDodgy

"Some modern birds, such as the ostrich, have fingers on their wings, and the juvenile hoatzin (a South American bird) has well-developed fingers and toes with which it can climb trees."

[Image: 683px-OstrichWing.jpg]

Hoatzin have two claws because the two out of the three were fused, archaeopteryx has all of them unfused.

"One of the biggest problems for evolutionists is explaining the origin of flight. To make matters worse, evolutionists believe that the flying birds evolved before the nonflying birds, such as penguins."

I would like to add that flying avians to penguins is known. Secondly,the origin of flight is being researched.9

Conclusion: You guys need to read a paper. Now I know my true calling, education, and I am starting by debunking you guys. Thanks for reading.Thumbsup

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles...ark_1_10_1

1. http://video.nationalgeographic.com/vide...saurus-sci

2. http://www.amnh.org/learn/pd/dinos/inter...hbone.html

3. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/201...194948.htm

4. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en..._fig23.jpg

5. http://www.prehistoric-wildlife.com/spec...ornis.html

6. http://sauroposeidon.files.wordpress.com...r-sacs.pdf

7. http://faculty.msj.edu/kritskg/darwin/Si...pteryx.pdf

8. http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/feather_evolution.htm

9. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/201...130817.htm

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26-03-2014, 01:26 AM
RE: Did Dinosaurs turn to Birds? Yes! A response to AiG
Sounds tasty!

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26-03-2014, 01:34 AM
RE: Did Dinosaurs turn to Birds? Yes! A response to AiG
Historical science was not an elective option when I was a school Smile
birds didn't evolve from dinosaurs, birds are dinosaurs.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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26-03-2014, 02:56 AM
RE: Did Dinosaurs turn to Birds? Yes! A response to AiG
(26-03-2014 01:34 AM)sporehux Wrote:  ..birds didn't just evolve from dinosaurs, birds are dinosaurs.

Because if they didn't come from dinosaurs, where did they come from?

An analogy: Sports cars didn't come from automobiles, they are automobiles. Undecided

As opposed to: Sports cars didn't just come from automobiles, they are automobiles. Thumbsup


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26-03-2014, 04:30 AM
RE: Did Dinosaurs turn to Birds? Yes! A response to AiG
Well written and informative, with easy to understand language. I'm not unintelligent but you make it easy to understand for those of us who get lost in the terms often employed in such subjects.

Keep up the good work PF.

The requirement of evidence to back your claim does not disappear because it hurts your feelings, reality does not care about your feefees.
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26-03-2014, 05:18 AM
RE: Did Dinosaurs turn to Birds? Yes! A response to AiG
(26-03-2014 02:56 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(26-03-2014 01:34 AM)sporehux Wrote:  ..birds didn't just evolve from dinosaurs, birds are dinosaurs.

Because if they didn't come from dinosaurs, where did they come from?

Smartass eggs, Eggvolution

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26-03-2014, 05:56 AM (This post was last modified: 26-03-2014 06:10 AM by Bows and Arrows.)
RE: Did Dinosaurs turn to Birds? Yes! A response to AiG
I saw this fossil"Willo the Thescelosaurus" last week.

The display card said that it was unique because it had tendons and cartilage, and a large lump of iron? in the chest cavity area, which they think might be the first fossilized heart.

also saw a giant ground sloth, Acrocanthosaurus, and a bunch more.


ETA: just did some reading up on Willo, and the heart thing is controversial. I'm not a dino-person. I just walk by what's on display and comment with "ooo" "ahh" "look kids isn't that neat" and keep moving. Big Grin


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