Did Hitler win?
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22-10-2014, 02:25 PM (This post was last modified: 22-10-2014 04:03 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: Did Hitler win?
(22-10-2014 02:17 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All, I'm repeating that if we say Hitler was a Christian, then we go to the Bible, he was a very poor Christian. I follow the scriptures. True Christians do.

You can use No True Scotsman against me once we agree what a Scotsman is! I can call myself a scientist--do I have a Ph D or Masters? I can call myself a muslim, am I getting my beliefs from Mad Magazine or the Koran?

If we're going to debate this further, we must define terms. You cannot constantly pull No True Scotsman without actually having a Scotsman being defined! You cannot logically say (nor can I) no true (vague undefined something) is a true (vague undefined something)!

With Christian sects numbering north of 30,000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chr...ominations it hardly seems possible to define one doesn't it?

So, when you are told that you are using the No True Scotsman argument what you are being told is that you have no special powers to define what or who a true Christian is. In fact none of do because there aren't two people in this world who would agree on all points.

So there's that.

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22-10-2014, 02:40 PM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(22-10-2014 02:25 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(22-10-2014 02:17 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All, I'm repeating that if we say Hitler was a Christian, then we go to the Bible, he was a very poor Christian. I follow the scriptures. True Christians do.

You can use No True Scotsman against me once we agree what a Scotsman is! I can call myself a scientist--do I have a Ph D or Masters? I can call myself a muslim, am I getting my beliefs from Mad Magazine or the Koran?

If we're going to debate this further, we must define terms. You cannot constantly pull No True Scotsman without actually having a Scotsman being defined! You cannot logically say (nor can I) no true (vague undefined something) is a true (vague undefined something)!

With Christian sects numbering north of 30,000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chr...ominations it hardle seems possible to define one doesn't it?

So, when you are told that you are using the No True Scotsman argument what you are being told is that you have no special powers to define what or who a true Christian is. In fact none of do because there aren't two people in this world who would agree on all points.

So there's that.

Naw, bro, you're clearly missing his point.

What Q says a True Christian™ is must be correct, because feels.

That billions of other self-identified Christians have lived and died believing other things is a total coincidence, I'm sure. But they're all clearly wrong, because Q's feels.

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22-10-2014, 02:45 PM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(22-10-2014 02:40 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(22-10-2014 02:25 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  With Christian sects numbering north of 30,000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chr...ominations it hardle seems possible to define one doesn't it?

So, when you are told that you are using the No True Scotsman argument what you are being told is that you have no special powers to define what or who a true Christian is. In fact none of do because there aren't two people in this world who would agree on all points.

So there's that.

Naw, bro, you're clearly missing his point.

What Q says a True Christian™ is must be correct, because feels.

That billions of other self-identified Christians have lived and died believing other things is a total coincidence, I'm sure. But they're all clearly wrong, because Q's feels.

Oops, thanks for clarifying. Q can be difficult to understand sometimes Rolleyes You know, "writing in tongues" and all that. (Is that even possible?)

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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28-10-2014, 12:26 PM
RE: Did Hitler win?
All,

With respect, you are missing my point entirely. If a Christian is what one is inwardly, a follower of Jesus in one's "heart", we can then decide whether one is following Jesus by reasoning, revelation or by scripture.

Hitler didn't attend church, and his nation/regime categorically incarcerated those pastors and priests who swore allegiance to the scriptures but not to Hitler.

If a Christian is what one is born as, or what one did in one's early years, than Hitler is a Christian as are many or most of those who "claim" to be atheists on this forum!

And if you want to say we CANNOT define what a Christian IS, a TRUE Christian, than I cannot be guilty of No TRUE Scotsman.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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28-10-2014, 12:58 PM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(28-10-2014 12:26 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

With respect, you are missing my point entirely. If a Christian is what one is inwardly, a follower of Jesus in one's "heart", we can then decide whether one is following Jesus by reasoning, revelation or by scripture.

Hitler didn't attend church, and his nation/regime categorically incarcerated those pastors and priests who swore allegiance to the scriptures but not to Hitler.

If a Christian is what one is born as, or what one did in one's early years, than Hitler is a Christian as are many or most of those who "claim" to be atheists on this forum!

And if you want to say we CANNOT define what a Christian IS, a TRUE Christian, than I cannot be guilty of No TRUE Scotsman.


You have been guilty of NTS because you have claimed that some are True Christians™ and some aren't.

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28-10-2014, 02:04 PM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(28-10-2014 12:26 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

With respect, you are missing my point entirely. If a Christian is what one is inwardly, a follower of Jesus in one's "heart", we can then decide whether one is following Jesus by reasoning, revelation or by scripture.

Hitler didn't attend church, and his nation/regime categorically incarcerated those pastors and priests who swore allegiance to the scriptures but not to Hitler.

If a Christian is what one is born as, or what one did in one's early years, than Hitler is a Christian as are many or most of those who "claim" to be atheists on this forum!

And if you want to say we CANNOT define what a Christian IS, a TRUE Christian, than I cannot be guilty of No TRUE Scotsman.

You're deliberately ignoring all the points we (collectively!) have been making. You cannot use scripture to define what a "true" Christian is in such a way that some other person can't invalidate by using scripture from the same book. There's a reason there are so many different sects in Christianity. They all think they're doing it right and they all think they've found the "proper" interpretation of the scriptures.

What you're doing is not new and is not special. It is, however, getting rather annoying when you simply ignore evidence counter to your world-view.
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28-10-2014, 02:32 PM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(28-10-2014 02:04 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(28-10-2014 12:26 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

With respect, you are missing my point entirely. If a Christian is what one is inwardly, a follower of Jesus in one's "heart", we can then decide whether one is following Jesus by reasoning, revelation or by scripture.

Hitler didn't attend church, and his nation/regime categorically incarcerated those pastors and priests who swore allegiance to the scriptures but not to Hitler.

If a Christian is what one is born as, or what one did in one's early years, than Hitler is a Christian as are many or most of those who "claim" to be atheists on this forum!

And if you want to say we CANNOT define what a Christian IS, a TRUE Christian, than I cannot be guilty of No TRUE Scotsman.

You're deliberately ignoring all the points we (collectively!) have been making. You cannot use scripture to define what a "true" Christian is in such a way that some other person can't invalidate by using scripture from the same book. There's a reason there are so many different sects in Christianity. They all think they're doing it right and they all think they've found the "proper" interpretation of the scriptures.

What you're doing is not new and is not special. It is, however, getting rather annoying when you simply ignore evidence counter to your world-view.

Chas and Robby,

If I point out that a person is born and dies in China without ever seeing or visiting Scotland is not a true Scotsman, I have not made a fallacy.

You are oversimplifying in the case of Christian sects. Most sects were created when one group followed the Bible, the other, tradition. 1) Not all think they are following the scriptures. The Roman Church, for one notable example, says their tradition amplifies and interprets and supersedes the scriptures. 2) IF you will say "a true Christian" attempts to follow the Bible, therefore the thousands of sects are all Christians who attempt to follow the Bible, then kindly show me where the Nazis attempted to follow the Bible, which is the point. Mind you, not the two or three verses the Nazis twisted to say the Jews were cast off or etc.

For another example, I'm sure you'd both say America is a Christian nation. Why the separation of church and state if so?

Again, you cannot have it both ways in the debate. Either say the Nazis are Christians because they are born so--and then many on this forum who claim atheism are really Christians--or demonstrate that Hitler was a Christian because he followed the Bible. I'm sure you both know that Hitler's followers claimed him to be the Messiah--would that make him a Christian or a leader of a Christian cult? Please be honest.

Thanks.

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28-10-2014, 03:07 PM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(28-10-2014 02:32 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(28-10-2014 02:04 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  You're deliberately ignoring all the points we (collectively!) have been making. You cannot use scripture to define what a "true" Christian is in such a way that some other person can't invalidate by using scripture from the same book. There's a reason there are so many different sects in Christianity. They all think they're doing it right and they all think they've found the "proper" interpretation of the scriptures.

What you're doing is not new and is not special. It is, however, getting rather annoying when you simply ignore evidence counter to your world-view.

Chas and Robby,

If I point out that a person is born and dies in China without ever seeing or visiting Scotland is not a true Scotsman, I have not made a fallacy.

Is that an attempt at humor? Consider

Quote:You are oversimplifying in the case of Christian sects. Most sects were created when one group followed the Bible, the other, tradition. 1) Not all think they are following the scriptures. The Roman Church, for one notable example, says their tradition amplifies and interprets and supersedes the scriptures. 2) IF you will say "a true Christian" attempts to follow the Bible, therefore the thousands of sects are all Christians who attempt to follow the Bible, then kindly show me where the Nazis attempted to follow the Bible, which is the point. Mind you, not the two or three verses the Nazis twisted to say the Jews were cast off or etc.

We're not the ones trying to define a true Christian. You are the one denying others are true Christians when they don't believe or act in accord with your definition. You say, "a true Christian wouldn't do thus and so." That is a "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

Quote:For another example, I'm sure you'd both say America is a Christian nation. Why the separation of church and state if so?

Is that another attempt at humor? Consider

The U.S. was founded on Enlightenment principles and is a secular republic.

Quote:Again, you cannot have it both ways in the debate. Either say the Nazis are Christians because they are born so--and then many on this forum who claim atheism are really Christians--or demonstrate that Hitler was a Christian because he followed the Bible. I'm sure you both know that Hitler's followers claimed him to be the Messiah--would that make him a Christian or a leader of a Christian cult?

No, most of the German people were practicing Christians. They said they were Christians.

Quote:Please be honest.

I suggest you try taking your own advice. Unless that was yet another attempt at humor.

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28-10-2014, 06:04 PM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(28-10-2014 02:32 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You are oversimplifying in the case of Christian sects. Most sects were created when one group followed the Bible, the other, tradition.

Do you even Bible?
  • What is the Biblical stance on the Trinity?
  • Can women preach in a church service?
  • What day is the correct day to honor the Sabbath?
  • Should infants be baptized or should we wait until they're adults?
  • Can someone get into heaven if they're not baptized?
  • Do you need works to get into heaven or is grace sufficient?
  • Are the two stories of the Garden of Eden literal or metaphorical?

Every single one of those splits is based on various interpretations of Biblical texts. Just because some splits are based on tradition doesn't mean that all are. Some splits have both sides legitimately feeling they're Biblically correct. When you cherry pick to find a few counter examples while ignoring all the times you're wrong, it makes you look dishonest.
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28-10-2014, 06:16 PM
RE: Did Hitler win?
Yes. Hitler and the German people were Christian. Their final solution has a long history based in the New Testament

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemit..._Testament

Adolf Hitler Wrote:"my feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter"

Even if he wasn't a Christian at the end he still used the faith of the German people to facilitate his actions and to gain the support of the Catholic Church. And he still had a great reverence for Jesus and believed in divine providence.

Either he was a Christian, or he used the limb history of Christian antisemitism to gain support.
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