Did Hitler win?
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14-10-2014, 12:11 PM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(14-10-2014 10:47 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(14-10-2014 10:26 AM)Winterwolf00 Wrote:  So you're confusing a denomination with a metaphor?
I see where the rest of your confusion comes from.

I'm confused at times like everyone else, but I love and adhere to the scripture. Jesus said NO ONE unless they are born again. NO ONE means one cannot claim to be both a Christian who is heaven-bound and not born again. "No one" isn't a metaphor, it's a boundary/definition.

"Born again" is a metaphor, don't you think?
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14-10-2014, 12:32 PM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(14-10-2014 10:47 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(14-10-2014 10:26 AM)Winterwolf00 Wrote:  So you're confusing a denomination with a metaphor?
I see where the rest of your confusion comes from.

I'm confused at times like everyone else, but I love and adhere to the scripture. Jesus said NO ONE unless they are born again. NO ONE means one cannot claim to be both a Christian who is heaven-bound and not born again. "No one" isn't a metaphor, it's a boundary/definition.

It's seeing a Hitler in the same camp with a Billy Graham or etc. that causes the confusion IMO.
Seeing as how they are both Christians and raging anti-semites I don't what confusion you mean.

Trouble rather the tiger in his lair than the sage among his books. For to you kingdoms and their armies are things mighty and enduring, but to him they are but toys of the moment, to be overturned with the flick of a finger.”

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14-10-2014, 12:33 PM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(14-10-2014 12:11 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(14-10-2014 10:47 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'm confused at times like everyone else, but I love and adhere to the scripture. Jesus said NO ONE unless they are born again. NO ONE means one cannot claim to be both a Christian who is heaven-bound and not born again. "No one" isn't a metaphor, it's a boundary/definition.

"Born again" is a metaphor, don't you think?

I'm sure it's not to some Christians but to me it's just as much nonsense as a great deal of the rest of the bible.

Trouble rather the tiger in his lair than the sage among his books. For to you kingdoms and their armies are things mighty and enduring, but to him they are but toys of the moment, to be overturned with the flick of a finger.”

― Gordon R. Dickson
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14-10-2014, 01:39 PM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(14-10-2014 11:12 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(14-10-2014 09:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  One example might include John's 3rd chapter. A lot of nominal Christian converse with me and say, "Now, I'm not a born again Christian, but..." Jesus said you have to be born again to get to Heaven. The dictionary definition of Christian is "follower of Jesus". He said "be born again". The nominal Christian is saying, "I follow Jesus from my own mind rather than from the scriptures..."

And Hitler wasn't born again? You know this how?

Or is being a Christian more than just that one thing?

A real Christian per the Bible:

*is a peacemaker who is himself at peace
*has a numinous peace different than that offered by other religions or worldly things
*is to love, forgive and pray for the benefit of their enemies
*cannot murder
*upholds and chooses life
*is obedient to authorities, honors their family, etc.

The fact that the Nazi state was particularly vile to priests and nuns in the camps despite Hitler's Catholic childhood, the fact that Hitler apparently did not set foot in a church after his teen years, the fact that babies were baptized under Nazi flags and etc. - well, rather than me saying that Hitler was not a born again Christian who loved the Bible and Jesus and rather than you saying he might have been, let us say it was highly, exceptionally unlikely he was born again, which is what I tell Christians who ask me.

Wouldn't two reasonable, intelligent people agree Hitler may have been a teen adherent to the Catholic church but hardly a practicing born again believer as an adult? He might have been born again, I might be, and you might be, too... and?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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14-10-2014, 04:58 PM
RE: Did Hitler win?
RE: Being "born again":

Excuse me for getting it right the first time!

Big Grin
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14-10-2014, 11:06 PM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(14-10-2014 01:39 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(14-10-2014 11:12 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  And Hitler wasn't born again? You know this how?

Or is being a Christian more than just that one thing?

A real Christian per the Bible:

*is a peacemaker who is himself at peace
*has a numinous peace different than that offered by other religions or worldly things
*is to love, forgive and pray for the benefit of their enemies
*cannot murder
*upholds and chooses life
*is obedient to authorities, honors their family, etc.

The fact that the Nazi state was particularly vile to priests and nuns in the camps despite Hitler's Catholic childhood, the fact that Hitler apparently did not set foot in a church after his teen years, the fact that babies were baptized under Nazi flags and etc. - well, rather than me saying that Hitler was not a born again Christian who loved the Bible and Jesus and rather than you saying he might have been, let us say it was highly, exceptionally unlikely he was born again, which is what I tell Christians who ask me.

Wouldn't two reasonable, intelligent people agree Hitler may have been a teen adherent to the Catholic church but hardly a practicing born again believer as an adult? He might have been born again, I might be, and you might be, too... and?

One particular interpretation of the Bible to suite your own needs, none of us are impressed.

Until all Christians can agree on what-the-actual-fuck it means to be a Christian, the term 'True Christian' or anyone claiming to represent real Christianity is full of shit and blowing smoke.

Anyways, Hitler's own religious beliefs are not important. What is far more damning is that the vast majority of Nazis were practicing Catholics and Lutherans, and it was these men who operated at the ground level. It was these god-fearing Christians who rounded up the gypsies, Jews, gays, and the mentally handicapped for the concentration camps. It was these god-fearing men who ran the concentration camps. It was these god-fearing men operated the gas chambers, manned the ovens, and filled the firing squads.

Belief in god and the love of Jesus did fuck-all to stop these atrocities. God's own appointed emissary on Earth (the Pope) never excommunicated a single Nazi for their crimes during the war (Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels was excommunicated, for the crime of marrying a Protestant), but rather signed a treaty with them for political concessions.

Even if Hitler was a secret atheist-pagan who used Christianity as a political tool for evil, the fact remains that it worked spectacularly. Christianity was still used as a tool to enable the Holocaust. If Hitler had been the only crazy Christian in the room, it would have been one thing. The most damning thing about the Holocaust was that Hitler got an entire nation of Christians to follow him along. That damns Christianity far worse than whatever Hitler's personal view may or may not have been. Drinking Beverage

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15-10-2014, 09:29 AM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(13-10-2014 02:05 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  "We know that no murderer has the spirit of Christ" in 1 John is just one verse that Christians would point to.

I just gotta point out that, by that statement, Yahweh does not have the spirit of Christ (i.e., himself)... oh the tangled webs we weave... carry on. Drinking Beverage

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15-10-2014, 11:11 AM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(14-10-2014 11:06 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(14-10-2014 01:39 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  A real Christian per the Bible:

*is a peacemaker who is himself at peace
*has a numinous peace different than that offered by other religions or worldly things
*is to love, forgive and pray for the benefit of their enemies
*cannot murder
*upholds and chooses life
*is obedient to authorities, honors their family, etc.

The fact that the Nazi state was particularly vile to priests and nuns in the camps despite Hitler's Catholic childhood, the fact that Hitler apparently did not set foot in a church after his teen years, the fact that babies were baptized under Nazi flags and etc. - well, rather than me saying that Hitler was not a born again Christian who loved the Bible and Jesus and rather than you saying he might have been, let us say it was highly, exceptionally unlikely he was born again, which is what I tell Christians who ask me.

Wouldn't two reasonable, intelligent people agree Hitler may have been a teen adherent to the Catholic church but hardly a practicing born again believer as an adult? He might have been born again, I might be, and you might be, too... and?

One particular interpretation of the Bible to suite your own needs, none of us are impressed.

Until all Christians can agree on what-the-actual-fuck it means to be a Christian, the term 'True Christian' or anyone claiming to represent real Christianity is full of shit and blowing smoke.

Anyways, Hitler's own religious beliefs are not important. What is far more damning is that the vast majority of Nazis were practicing Catholics and Lutherans, and it was these men who operated at the ground level. It was these god-fearing Christians who rounded up the gypsies, Jews, gays, and the mentally handicapped for the concentration camps. It was these god-fearing men who ran the concentration camps. It was these god-fearing men operated the gas chambers, manned the ovens, and filled the firing squads.

Belief in god and the love of Jesus did fuck-all to stop these atrocities. God's own appointed emissary on Earth (the Pope) never excommunicated a single Nazi for their crimes during the war (Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels was excommunicated, for the crime of marrying a Protestant), but rather signed a treaty with them for political concessions.

Even if Hitler was a secret atheist-pagan who used Christianity as a political tool for evil, the fact remains that it worked spectacularly. Christianity was still used as a tool to enable the Holocaust. If Hitler had been the only crazy Christian in the room, it would have been one thing. The most damning thing about the Holocaust was that Hitler got an entire nation of Christians to follow him along. That damns Christianity far worse than whatever Hitler's personal view may or may not have been. Drinking Beverage

You are strengthening my rationalist mindset on this issue, using scripture texts as a guide, which has been called a No True Scotsman fallacy, that only born again Christians are real followers of Jesus. Catholics and Lutherans teach salvation by works. I teach belief in Jesus or if you like faith or trust or reliance upon Christ. Catholics teach that murder and other "mortal sin" may be absolved via prayer, repentance, works--I teach as do evangelicals that no one may say they are born again and murder per the scriptures. And we know that the Nazis rounded up evangelical pastors for prison and forcibly closing their pulpits, those who taught trust in Jesus first, following a Nazi regime second, and only where it didn't contradict the scriptures.

Let me tell you where I'm going with this, please. My concern isn't that we rehash Godwin stuff on the web. I will commit fully to not using loaded statements like "all atheists are X" if you and other forum members will stop lumping all Christians together whether or not they follow the scriptures closely. Not that I'm trying to hold some quid pro quo over your head, by the way. I do need to be sensitive to the fact that there are many strains of belief among atheists (and I'm talking not only god or apatheism and etc. but many different things apart from god). Likewise, it is cringe-worthy when atheists lump all Christians in one place (their are theistic evolutionist and creationist Xians, pro-life and pro-abortion Christians, tithing Christians and Christians who don't give money, etc.)

But I repeat, reminding me that what could only logically be called the most nominal of Catholics and Lutherans who didn't attend church services, persecuted born again Christians, put priests and nuns into camps to perform particular atrocities against them, etc. is underscoring the need to love Jesus in truth rather than in very empty words only.

You wrote, "Belief in god and the love of Jesus did fuck-all to stop these atrocities". How do you reckon that a lover of Jesus beat a Catholic priest to death or urinated on him in a death camp? I don't think the average person confuses a Nazi as a Jesus-lover with a real Jesus-lover passing illegal food through the fence to those the Nazis held captive, at peril of their own lives.

There were loving atheists and loving theists who indeed risked their lives in military and non-military actions to end the Nazi horrors. Thanks.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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15-10-2014, 01:15 PM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(14-10-2014 01:39 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(14-10-2014 11:12 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  And Hitler wasn't born again? You know this how?

Or is being a Christian more than just that one thing?

A real Christian per the Bible:

*is a peacemaker who is himself at peace
*has a numinous peace different than that offered by other religions or worldly things
*is to love, forgive and pray for the benefit of their enemies
*cannot murder
*upholds and chooses life
*is obedient to authorities, honors their family, etc.

The fact that the Nazi state was particularly vile to priests and nuns in the camps despite Hitler's Catholic childhood, the fact that Hitler apparently did not set foot in a church after his teen years, the fact that babies were baptized under Nazi flags and etc. - well, rather than me saying that Hitler was not a born again Christian who loved the Bible and Jesus and rather than you saying he might have been, let us say it was highly, exceptionally unlikely he was born again, which is what I tell Christians who ask me.

Wouldn't two reasonable, intelligent people agree Hitler may have been a teen adherent to the Catholic church but hardly a practicing born again believer as an adult? He might have been born again, I might be, and you might be, too... and?

So once again you bring out the NTS.
A 'real Christian' is someone who *and let me see if I get this right* 'accepts Jesus Christ into their heart as their lord and savoir and believes that he is the son of God and/or God made flesh and/or both, and that he died for the sins of all humanity'.
What a mouthful.

Trouble rather the tiger in his lair than the sage among his books. For to you kingdoms and their armies are things mighty and enduring, but to him they are but toys of the moment, to be overturned with the flick of a finger.”

― Gordon R. Dickson
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15-10-2014, 04:56 PM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(15-10-2014 11:11 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You are strengthening my rationalist mindset on this issue, using scripture texts as a guide, which has been called a No True Scotsman fallacy, that only born again Christians are real followers of Jesus.

It's called out as a No True Scotsman Fallacy precisely because that's exactly what that is...

You, and only you, have the exclusive claim to True Christianity™. Everyone else? The billions of Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptist, Pentecostals, etc.? They're all wrong, but fortunately you've been able to divine the correct interpretations of the accepted books to form the correct doctrines and dogmas.

You and every other person who ever self-identified as a Christian going back to Saul of Tarsis. None of you fuckers have a clue, and none of you can all agree. 2.18 billion of you, and almost as many different and distinct ideas of what True Christianity™ is. Yeah, no thanks. You fail to be any more compelling then the rest of them.


(15-10-2014 11:11 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Catholics and Lutherans teach salvation by works.

Which, if we're being fair here, at least makes better sense than being persecuted for the thought crime of not having the correct belief based on insufficient evidence.


(15-10-2014 11:11 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I teach belief in Jesus or if you like faith or trust or reliance upon Christ.

Which is about as effective and consequential as my 'faith' and 'trust' in the Invisible Pink Unicorn.


(15-10-2014 11:11 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Catholics teach that murder and other "mortal sin" may be absolved via prayer, repentance, works--I teach as do evangelicals that no one may say they are born again and murder per the scriptures. And we know that the Nazis rounded up evangelical pastors for prison and forcibly closing their pulpits, those who taught trust in Jesus first, following a Nazi regime second, and only where it didn't contradict the scriptures.

Right, so still butthurt that the Nazis didn't play nice with all Christians?


(15-10-2014 11:11 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Let me tell you where I'm going with this, please.

If I asked you to stop, would it work?


(15-10-2014 11:11 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  My concern isn't that we rehash Godwin stuff on the web. I will commit fully to not using loaded statements like "all atheists are X" if you and other forum members will stop lumping all Christians together whether or not they follow the scriptures closely.

Problem: The vast majority of practicing Christians, who were also Nazi's, considered themselves Christians. We are not placing that label on them, they placed it upon themselves; while you are doing your best to try and distance yourself from them by claiming they aren't True Christians™ in an increasing convoluted series of No True Scotsman fallacies.


(15-10-2014 11:11 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Not that I'm trying to hold some quid pro quo over your head, by the way. I do need to be sensitive to the fact that there are many strains of belief among atheists (and I'm talking not only god or apatheism and etc. but many different things apart from god). Likewise, it is cringe-worthy when atheists lump all Christians in one place (their are theistic evolutionist and creationist Xians, pro-life and pro-abortion Christians, tithing Christians and Christians who don't give money, etc.)

Once again, that vast majority of Nazi Christians self-identified as Christians. We are not forcing that label upon them, it is one they chose, regardless of however much you might not like it.


(15-10-2014 11:11 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  But I repeat, reminding me that what could only logically be called the most nominal of Catholics and Lutherans who didn't attend church services, persecuted born again Christians, put priests and nuns into camps to perform particular atrocities against them, etc. is underscoring the need to love Jesus in truth rather than in very empty words only.

Not every person towed the line, and those who didn't were thrown in with the rest of the undesirables. The Evangelicals weren't persecuted because they were Evangelicals, they were persecuted because they didn't tow the line like the Catholics and Lutherans. That still doesn't makes the Catholics and Lutherans any less Christian than the Evangelicals. It's all just different flavors of the same bullshit.


(15-10-2014 11:11 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You wrote, "Belief in god and the love of Jesus did fuck-all to stop these atrocities".

The Holocaust happened. It was perpetuated by Christians. Thus belief in Jesus wasn't enough to stop genocide. Simple enough really.


(15-10-2014 11:11 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  How do you reckon that a lover of Jesus beat a Catholic priest to death or urinated on him in a death camp?

Because they have a particular interpretation of the scriptures that was just as true for them as your particular interpretation is true for you; and unlike an atheist, you can't sit on the sidelines and see just how full-of-shit they both are.


(15-10-2014 11:11 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I don't think the average person confuses a Nazi as a Jesus-lover with a real Jesus-lover passing illegal food through the fence to those the Nazis held captive, at peril of their own lives.

No True Scotsman.


(15-10-2014 11:11 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  There were loving atheists and loving theists who indeed risked their lives in military and non-military actions to end the Nazi horrors. Thanks.

Indeed. Doesn't make the Nazi's any less Christian than you. Drinking Beverage

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