Did Hitler win?
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16-10-2014, 07:33 PM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(16-10-2014 01:50 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(15-10-2014 01:15 PM)Winterwolf00 Wrote:  So once again you bring out the NTS.
A 'real Christian' is someone who *and let me see if I get this right* 'accepts Jesus Christ into their heart as their lord and savoir and believes that he is the son of God and/or God made flesh and/or both, and that he died for the sins of all humanity'.
What a mouthful.

Simplify, please:

As foretold, Jesus died, rose. Trust Jesus.

The problem with the "untrue" Christians:

Trust Jesus AND. Trust Jesus BUT. I do believe X and Y and Z and do A,B,C.

What a mouthful is correct. You are 100% right.

Your post is incoherent.

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17-10-2014, 06:11 AM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(16-10-2014 01:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Okay. I will try to refrain from "Jesus said" and simply say, "What the text says". The text says "be born again". One can self-identify as born again or not, trusting by faith or not, god-fearing or not, etc.

Thanks.

Do you have evidence that Hitler was or was not born again? If so, what is it? You are claiming Hitler wasn't a "true" Christian, and that a "true" Christian is born again. So, you seem to be implying that Hitler wasn't born again.

On what do you base this?
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20-10-2014, 11:13 AM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(17-10-2014 06:11 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(16-10-2014 01:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Okay. I will try to refrain from "Jesus said" and simply say, "What the text says". The text says "be born again". One can self-identify as born again or not, trusting by faith or not, god-fearing or not, etc.

Thanks.

Do you have evidence that Hitler was or was not born again? If so, what is it? You are claiming Hitler wasn't a "true" Christian, and that a "true" Christian is born again. So, you seem to be implying that Hitler wasn't born again.

On what do you base this?

I have decided not to claim that he wasn't for a pragmatic reason, others here claim that he was! I'm asking that we say that he was a bad Christian or etc. The Bible says a "good" Christian isn't a murderer and etc.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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20-10-2014, 02:33 PM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(20-10-2014 11:13 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(17-10-2014 06:11 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Do you have evidence that Hitler was or was not born again? If so, what is it? You are claiming Hitler wasn't a "true" Christian, and that a "true" Christian is born again. So, you seem to be implying that Hitler wasn't born again.

On what do you base this?

I have decided not to claim that he wasn't for a pragmatic reason, others here claim that he was! I'm asking that we say that he was a bad Christian or etc. The Bible says a "good" Christian isn't a murderer and etc.

As I pointed out aeons ago, the Jewbook also says that you need to hate all of your family in order to be a Christian.

Hell, Jewsus plainly said that he was around to be disruptive and spread hate, not peace: Matthew 10:34-37.

Jewsus was an egocentric fuck.

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21-10-2014, 12:05 AM (This post was last modified: 21-10-2014 12:09 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Did Hitler win?
(16-10-2014 01:56 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  If your argument is that NO religious adherent can be accurate unless their opinion is also a majority viewpoint, we'd have an issue, yes. Be aware I'm not using NO true Scotsman but FEW true Scotsmen! There are perhaps hundreds of millions of born again believers who believe as I do.

We could as well say that 10 million Americans believed we should not have gone to Iraq and the other 300 million were excited about it, so Iraq was "right". I think the 10 million were correct there, perhaps. You?

You just define Christianity is a way that works for your interpretation of the scriptures. The Nazis who were practicing Catholics and Protestants? They read the Bible too, they also considered themselves Christians, and they managed to square that circle. For you to claim that their interpretation is less valid than yours is what makes it a No True Scotsman fallacy.

Of course the problem lies with the contradictory mess of a holy book you all supposedly adhere to. You cannot fix the book, and so you'll never be able to fix this problem. The vast majority Nazis were Christians, and were just as legitimate in their faith as you, get the fuck over it. And what's the big problem, Jesus does forgive all, right? Even the shit you are not personally guilty of yet will be damned for anyways(original sin)? In the context of just how fucked up the Bible is, you have no grounds to look over at the Nazis and dismiss their faith as less legitimate than your own.

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21-10-2014, 05:41 AM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(20-10-2014 11:13 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I have decided not to claim that he wasn't for a pragmatic reason, others here claim that he was! I'm asking that we say that he was a bad Christian or etc. The Bible says a "good" Christian isn't a murderer and etc.

Three things:
  1. No one said he was born again. We said he's Christian. That's a definition you were using. You said he wasn't born again. You may be stepping back from that position (good), but don't put words in our mouth.
  2. No one said Hitler was a "good" Christian. Non-Christians tend to not get wrapped up in notions of "good" and "bad" Christianity, as the definitions are always hopelessly subjective and useless.
  3. Please, point me to the scripture that says a "good" Christian isn't a murderer.
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21-10-2014, 11:48 AM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(21-10-2014 05:41 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(20-10-2014 11:13 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I have decided not to claim that he wasn't for a pragmatic reason, others here claim that he was! I'm asking that we say that he was a bad Christian or etc. The Bible says a "good" Christian isn't a murderer and etc.

Three things:
  1. No one said he was born again. We said he's Christian. That's a definition you were using. You said he wasn't born again. You may be stepping back from that position (good), but don't put words in our mouth.
  2. No one said Hitler was a "good" Christian. Non-Christians tend to not get wrapped up in notions of "good" and "bad" Christianity, as the definitions are always hopelessly subjective and useless.
  3. Please, point me to the scripture that says a "good" Christian isn't a murderer.

1. Yes. I agree.

2. I'm saying he was a bad Christian. Good and bad is more than merely subjective, it is a lot of what is thrown at Christianity on this forum. You can't have it both ways in my opinion. If you're going to go as far as some atheists do and there is no good or bad human behavior, that's fine, but then please review the many threads here saying Christianity and Christians are bad. You follow what I'm saying here?

3. 1 John 3:15. I can claim to be an atheist, some kind of poe, but I'm truly atheist at this time. Smile We cannot claim to be Christians, and murderers as well,while we have Christian faith. How would you interpret 1 John 3:15 differently? I'm open-minded to being corrected. Thanks.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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21-10-2014, 11:53 AM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(21-10-2014 11:48 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(21-10-2014 05:41 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Three things:
  1. No one said he was born again. We said he's Christian. That's a definition you were using. You said he wasn't born again. You may be stepping back from that position (good), but don't put words in our mouth.
  2. No one said Hitler was a "good" Christian. Non-Christians tend to not get wrapped up in notions of "good" and "bad" Christianity, as the definitions are always hopelessly subjective and useless.
  3. Please, point me to the scripture that says a "good" Christian isn't a murderer.

1. Yes. I agree.

2. I'm saying he was a bad Christian. Good and bad is more than merely subjective, it is a lot of what is thrown at Christianity on this forum. You can't have it both ways in my opinion. If you're going to go as far as some atheists do and there is no good or bad human behavior, that's fine, but then please review the many threads here saying Christianity and Christians are bad. You follow what I'm saying here?

No. "Many atheists" do not claim that "there is no good or bad human behavior". That is a straw man argument.

Quote:3. 1 John 3:15. I can claim to be an atheist, some kind of poe, but I'm truly atheist at this time. Smile We cannot claim to be Christians, and murderers as well,while we have Christian faith. How would you interpret 1 John 3:15 differently? I'm open-minded to being corrected. Thanks.

You are back to a 'No True Scotsman' argument.
Many who claimed to be True Christians™ did, in fact, commit murder in the name of their faith.

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21-10-2014, 12:52 PM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(21-10-2014 11:53 AM)Chas Wrote:  You are back to a 'No True Scotsman' argument.
Many who claimed to be True Christians™ did, in fact, commit murder in the name of their faith.

Ah, but Chas, just because they think they were True Christians™ doesn't mean the really were; the only way to know who's really a True Christian™ is to listen to Q's very own special privileged subjective personal interpretation, which is totally distinct from a true scotsman argument because IT JUST IS AND NEVER YOU MIND.

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21-10-2014, 12:53 PM (This post was last modified: 21-10-2014 01:00 PM by RobbyPants.)
RE: Did Hitler win?
(21-10-2014 11:48 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  2. I'm saying he was a bad Christian. Good and bad is more than merely subjective, it is a lot of what is thrown at Christianity on this forum. You can't have it both ways in my opinion. If you're going to go as far as some atheists do and there is no good or bad human behavior, that's fine, but then please review the many threads here saying Christianity and Christians are bad. You follow what I'm saying here?

Every time, without exception, that I've heard a Christian talk about Hitler being atheist, it was to lump in with other dictators to show how atheists are capable of great evil. Every time they've tried to NTS away the evidence he was Christian, it was to distance themselves from him.

I'm not talking about what other atheists do or don't do. All I'm talking about is:
  1. Hitler was a Christian.
  2. No amount of you NTSing about the issue will change that.

So stop changing the subject.


(21-10-2014 11:48 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  3. 1 John 3:15. I can claim to be an atheist, some kind of poe, but I'm truly atheist at this time. Smile We cannot claim to be Christians, and murderers as well,while we have Christian faith. How would you interpret 1 John 3:15 differently? I'm open-minded to being corrected. Thanks.

Actually, he specifically says that anyone who hates is a murderer, and that they don't have eternal life within them. Now, I could nitpick about how word-salady "not having eternal live residing in him" is, but for the time being, I'll assume that means "doesn't cut the mustard to get into heaven". Now, you're going to have to define "hate" for me, because depending on how it's defined, no one is getting into heaven.

And while we're quoting scripture on the subject of Jesus and violence: Matthew 10:34-36
Quote:34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

Sure, a lot of people say that it's symbolic (and maybe it is), but at that point, how do you know that 1 John 3:15 isn't?


Edit:
Also, note that the above passage was added in to fulfill Micah 7:6 (post hoc, of course), but this is what you get when you piggy back on a particularly bloodthirsty religion like Judaism. It's hard to fully divorce Jesus from all of that without ditching it wholesale, and most Christians... don't.
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