Did Hitler win?
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21-10-2014, 01:47 PM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(21-10-2014 12:52 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(21-10-2014 11:53 AM)Chas Wrote:  You are back to a 'No True Scotsman' argument.
Many who claimed to be True Christians™ did, in fact, commit murder in the name of their faith.

Ah, but Chas, just because they think they were True Christians™ doesn't mean the really were; the only way to know who's really a True Christian™ is to listen to Q's very own special privileged subjective personal interpretation, which is totally distinct from a true scotsman argument because IT JUST IS AND NEVER YOU MIND.

Don't forget, guys, that True Christian status is based on a linear timeline. You can be an absolute shit your entire life and then toss a buzzer-beater right before death to become a born again True Christian. For all we know, Hitler did it in his bunker and is in heaven right now:

Romans 10:9
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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22-10-2014, 09:27 AM (This post was last modified: 22-10-2014 09:34 AM by The Q Continuum.)
RE: Did Hitler win?
(21-10-2014 12:52 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(21-10-2014 11:53 AM)Chas Wrote:  You are back to a 'No True Scotsman' argument.
Many who claimed to be True Christians™ did, in fact, commit murder in the name of their faith.

Ah, but Chas, just because they think they were True Christians™ doesn't mean the really were; the only way to know who's really a True Christian™ is to listen to Q's very own special privileged subjective personal interpretation, which is totally distinct from a true scotsman argument because IT JUST IS AND NEVER YOU MIND.

I must protest that you are misrepresenting my viewpoint here. I've said several times that they aren't Christians if they disobey the text. I was asked to provide a textual source for my viewpoint:

1 John 5:13 - Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

I have had interesting discussions with this with fellow born agains, who say that a Christian who is born again can still murder someone. I "know that no murderer has eternal life" - he isn't born again.

It's not IT JUST IS. It's the text. If you like, you can have "The Q's interpretation of the text".

PS. If it helps, please tell me how I might interpret 1 John 5:13 to say that murderers can be Christians also. Thanks.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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22-10-2014, 09:33 AM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(21-10-2014 12:53 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(21-10-2014 11:48 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  2. I'm saying he was a bad Christian. Good and bad is more than merely subjective, it is a lot of what is thrown at Christianity on this forum. You can't have it both ways in my opinion. If you're going to go as far as some atheists do and there is no good or bad human behavior, that's fine, but then please review the many threads here saying Christianity and Christians are bad. You follow what I'm saying here?

Every time, without exception, that I've heard a Christian talk about Hitler being atheist, it was to lump in with other dictators to show how atheists are capable of great evil. Every time they've tried to NTS away the evidence he was Christian, it was to distance themselves from him.

I'm not talking about what other atheists do or don't do. All I'm talking about is:
  1. Hitler was a Christian.
  2. No amount of you NTSing about the issue will change that.

So stop changing the subject.


(21-10-2014 11:48 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  3. 1 John 3:15. I can claim to be an atheist, some kind of poe, but I'm truly atheist at this time. Smile We cannot claim to be Christians, and murderers as well,while we have Christian faith. How would you interpret 1 John 3:15 differently? I'm open-minded to being corrected. Thanks.

Actually, he specifically says that anyone who hates is a murderer, and that they don't have eternal life within them. Now, I could nitpick about how word-salady "not having eternal live residing in him" is, but for the time being, I'll assume that means "doesn't cut the mustard to get into heaven". Now, you're going to have to define "hate" for me, because depending on how it's defined, no one is getting into heaven.

And while we're quoting scripture on the subject of Jesus and violence: Matthew 10:34-36
Quote:34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

Sure, a lot of people say that it's symbolic (and maybe it is), but at that point, how do you know that 1 John 3:15 isn't?


Edit:
Also, note that the above passage was added in to fulfill Micah 7:6 (post hoc, of course), but this is what you get when you piggy back on a particularly bloodthirsty religion like Judaism. It's hard to fully divorce Jesus from all of that without ditching it wholesale, and most Christians... don't.

Okay.

Do you have textual evidence from the Bible that shows Hitler was a Christian because:

1. He was born Roman Catholic
2. He did some altar boy work as a pre-teen
3. He did spit-all for being a Christian or Catholic for the rest of his life

I've provided my textual thoughts on the matter already. I've patiently explained that I don't consider what you're born, or what your mother is/was, makes you a loving adherent of a religion or god. There are NT scriptures on the same, as well as our knowledge of and acceptance of outside the Bible that what a person is "in their heart" is their true self.

I would take verses 34 and 35 literally, by the way, but parse them as two teachings. Verse 34 - Jesus will be bringing a sword to the Earth. Verse 35 - Christianity sets people at enmity amongst themselves.

Half (?) the members of this forum have Christian parents who struggle with their children and vice versa over faith/atheism? Verse 35 to me is all-but prophetic evidence that again, Jesus has made a true statement.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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22-10-2014, 09:33 AM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(22-10-2014 09:27 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(21-10-2014 12:52 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Ah, but Chas, just because they think they were True Christians™ doesn't mean the really were; the only way to know who's really a True Christian™ is to listen to Q's very own special privileged subjective personal interpretation, which is totally distinct from a true scotsman argument because IT JUST IS AND NEVER YOU MIND.

I must protest that you are misrepresenting my viewpoint here. I've said several times that they aren't Christians if they disobey the text. I was asked to provide a textual source for my viewpoint:

Oh well then by THAT definition no one on the planet is a Christian.
Noone on Earth hasn't broken at least one of the laws.
Which means by YOUR OWN DEFINITION you are not a Christian.

Trouble rather the tiger in his lair than the sage among his books. For to you kingdoms and their armies are things mighty and enduring, but to him they are but toys of the moment, to be overturned with the flick of a finger.”

― Gordon R. Dickson
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22-10-2014, 12:42 PM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(22-10-2014 09:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Okay.

Do you have textual evidence from the Bible that shows Hitler was a Christian because:

1. He was born Roman Catholic
2. He did some altar boy work as a pre-teen
3. He did spit-all for being a Christian or Catholic for the rest of his life

No. The evidence was that Hitler claimed to be Christian. That's pretty compelling evidence, really. What you're doing is saying he wasn't a Christian by your standards based on your interpretations of the texts.

What part of No True Scotsman do you not understand?


(22-10-2014 09:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I've provided my textual thoughts on the matter already. I've patiently explained that I don't consider what you're born, or what your mother is/was, makes you a loving adherent of a religion or god. There are NT scriptures on the same, as well as our knowledge of and acceptance of outside the Bible that what a person is "in their heart" is their true self.

You explained some stuff, then I explained why that was super vague and asked for clarification. You provided none after the fact.

Stop acting like we're a bunch of mean atheists who are refusing to see your super awesome and correct points.


(22-10-2014 09:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I would take verses 34 and 35 literally, by the way, but parse them as two teachings. Verse 34 - Jesus will be bringing a sword to the Earth. Verse 35 - Christianity sets people at enmity amongst themselves.

Do you have anything other than your opinion (or, previously held narrative) to corroborate that?


(22-10-2014 09:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Half (?) the members of this forum have Christian parents who struggle with their children and vice versa over faith/atheism? Verse 35 to me is all-but prophetic evidence that again, Jesus has made a true statement.

I never said anything about whether or not this was true. I brought those verses up in context of Jesus and violence that you brought up in 1 John 3:15. Stop changing the subject. You seem to have a habit of doing that when things aren't going the way you like.

The subject is "what makes a true Christian", and you're supposed to be supplying a scriptural explanation of that in a way that cannot be invalidated by other scripture. So far you are failing. You can also redact your stance about a Biblically supported notion of "true" Christianity. It would probably be better that way, but it's up to you, really.
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22-10-2014, 12:51 PM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(21-10-2014 01:47 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  Don't forget, guys, that True Christian status is based on a linear timeline. You can be an absolute shit your entire life and then toss a buzzer-beater right before death to become a born again True Christian.

Great analogy!

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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22-10-2014, 01:34 PM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(22-10-2014 09:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(21-10-2014 12:53 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Every time, without exception, that I've heard a Christian talk about Hitler being atheist, it was to lump in with other dictators to show how atheists are capable of great evil. Every time they've tried to NTS away the evidence he was Christian, it was to distance themselves from him.

I'm not talking about what other atheists do or don't do. All I'm talking about is:
  1. Hitler was a Christian.
  2. No amount of you NTSing about the issue will change that.

So stop changing the subject.



Actually, he specifically says that anyone who hates is a murderer, and that they don't have eternal life within them. Now, I could nitpick about how word-salady "not having eternal live residing in him" is, but for the time being, I'll assume that means "doesn't cut the mustard to get into heaven". Now, you're going to have to define "hate" for me, because depending on how it's defined, no one is getting into heaven.

And while we're quoting scripture on the subject of Jesus and violence: Matthew 10:34-36

Sure, a lot of people say that it's symbolic (and maybe it is), but at that point, how do you know that 1 John 3:15 isn't?


Edit:
Also, note that the above passage was added in to fulfill Micah 7:6 (post hoc, of course), but this is what you get when you piggy back on a particularly bloodthirsty religion like Judaism. It's hard to fully divorce Jesus from all of that without ditching it wholesale, and most Christians... don't.

Okay.

Do you have textual evidence from the Bible that shows Hitler was a Christian because:

1. He was born Roman Catholic
2. He did some altar boy work as a pre-teen
3. He did spit-all for being a Christian or Catholic for the rest of his life

I've provided my textual thoughts on the matter already. I've patiently explained that I don't consider what you're born, or what your mother is/was, makes you a loving adherent of a religion or god. There are NT scriptures on the same, as well as our knowledge of and acceptance of outside the Bible that what a person is "in their heart" is their true self.

I would take verses 34 and 35 literally, by the way, but parse them as two teachings. Verse 34 - Jesus will be bringing a sword to the Earth. Verse 35 - Christianity sets people at enmity amongst themselves.

Half (?) the members of this forum have Christian parents who struggle with their children and vice versa over faith/atheism? Verse 35 to me is all-but prophetic evidence that again, Jesus has made a true statement.

Well, fuck me, it looks like I am just repeating myself and you are just running around in circles... Facepalm

(14-10-2014 11:06 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Anyways, Hitler's own religious beliefs are not important. What is far more damning is that the vast majority of Nazis were practicing Catholics and Lutherans, and it was these men who operated at the ground level. It was these god-fearing Christians who rounded up the gypsies, Jews, gays, and the mentally handicapped for the concentration camps. It was these god-fearing men who ran the concentration camps. It was these god-fearing men operated the gas chambers, manned the ovens, and filled the firing squads.

Belief in god and the love of Jesus did fuck-all to stop these atrocities. God's own appointed emissary on Earth (the Pope) never excommunicated a single Nazi for their crimes during the war (Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels was excommunicated, for the crime of marrying a Protestant), but rather signed a treaty with them for political concessions.

Even if Hitler was a secret atheist-pagan who used Christianity as a political tool for evil, the fact remains that it worked spectacularly. Christianity was still used as a tool to enable the Holocaust. If Hitler had been the only crazy Christian in the room, it would have been one thing. The most damning thing about the Holocaust was that Hitler got an entire nation of Christians to follow him along. That damns Christianity far worse than whatever Hitler's personal view may or may not have been. Drinking Beverage


tl;dr version

Hitler's personal convictions, however debatable they may be, pale in comparison to the fact that he got an entire nation of indisputable Christians to follow his plans; which is a far greater indictment of the failures of Christianity than it's mere association with Hitler.

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22-10-2014, 01:49 PM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(22-10-2014 01:34 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Hitler's personal convictions, however debatable they may be, pale in comparison to the fact that he got an entire nation of indisputable Christians to follow his plans; which is a far greater indictment of the failures of Christianity than it's mere association with Hitler.

That's actually a very good point. One I've never really considered. Theists so often bring up Hitler to talk about atheistic atrocities, that I tend to focus on him.

Sure, one could probably counter with Milgram's experiment as to why they did such horrible things, but at the end of the day, that would imply that social pressure is a bigger determining factor than religious devotion.
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22-10-2014, 02:17 PM
RE: Did Hitler win?
All, I'm repeating that if we say Hitler was a Christian, then we go to the Bible, he was a very poor Christian. I follow the scriptures. True Christians do.

You can use No True Scotsman against me once we agree what a Scotsman is! I can call myself a scientist--do I have a Ph D or Masters? I can call myself a muslim, am I getting my beliefs from Mad Magazine or the Koran?

If we're going to debate this further, we must define terms. You cannot constantly pull No True Scotsman without actually having a Scotsman being defined! You cannot logically say (nor can I) no true (vague undefined something) is a true (vague undefined something)!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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22-10-2014, 02:22 PM
RE: Did Hitler win?
(22-10-2014 01:49 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(22-10-2014 01:34 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Hitler's personal convictions, however debatable they may be, pale in comparison to the fact that he got an entire nation of indisputable Christians to follow his plans; which is a far greater indictment of the failures of Christianity than it's mere association with Hitler.

That's actually a very good point. One I've never really considered. Theists so often bring up Hitler to talk about atheistic atrocities, that I tend to focus on him.

Yes, "no German nor any person aware of German activity, during WWII, was a True Christian" is a ridiculous, broad statement and would be a very difficult argument to support. As a theist, I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole. Hitler is a much easier target.

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If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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