Did Isaiah Believe in Bigfoot?
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27-04-2012, 09:01 AM (This post was last modified: 27-04-2012 09:03 AM by houseofcantor.)
RE: Did Isaiah Believe in Bigfoot?
(26-04-2012 07:55 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  *NOTE: Sorry about the font size changes, but this thread is a bitch. It keeps deleting information, and I'm tired of fighting with it.

It's YHWH not liking you talking smack about his sock puppet. Big Grin



Current research indicates Isaiah was another conglomeration. Guy's too crazy to be one person. (Yeah, I said that. Big Grin )
(26-04-2012 08:17 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Ezekiel believed in UFOs so why not Bigfoot as well?

Hey. Did anybody mention Zeke? o.O

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27-04-2012, 06:54 PM
RE: Did Isaiah Believe in Bigfoot?
(27-04-2012 08:49 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  By the way, I'm not happy to be in a position of defending the Bible, it's just that atheists need to be more accurate when we attack it. "non-contradicting, inerrant word of God"


That's my position .. except there are countless contradictions.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

Here's about 50 of 'em. Weeping

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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27-04-2012, 07:01 PM
RE: Did Isaiah Believe in Bigfoot?
(27-04-2012 06:54 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(27-04-2012 08:49 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  By the way, I'm not happy to be in a position of defending the Bible, it's just that atheists need to be more accurate when we attack it. "non-contradicting, inerrant word of God"


That's my position .. except there are countless contradictions.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

Here's about 50 of 'em. Weeping
Those aren't contradictions to the True Believer, my young padawan.
I could play apologetic acrobats all day to give you a righteous answer to each and everyone of those...If I have my bottle of Ativan nearby. In fact, there is an editorial disclaimer on that website that says:
Quote: [Editor's note: Not everyone will agree that all of the listed
"contradictions" are, in fact, contradictions. It is therefore up to the
reader to use his/her own intelligence and decide for himself/herself
what s/he can and will accept as a contradiction
. In other words, you
need not agree with what Meritt sees as a problem or contradiction. It
should be kept in mind, however, that a perfect, omnipotent, and
omniscient god would reasonably be expected to have done a better job of
it than the Bible had such a god inspired a book. In any case, lists
such as this can be useful in serving as a springboard for further
study. For more, see also: Biblical Errancy and Biblical Criticism.]
That's where Rev. Erxomai would have tuned you out. There really is nothing new under the sun, including non-Believers telling Believers their book is full of contradictions that the True Believers will never see.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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27-04-2012, 09:38 PM
RE: Did Isaiah Believe in Bigfoot?
(27-04-2012 08:49 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  In this specific case, it's not changing the "original." The King James Version was created in the 1600's using manuscripts that aren't as old as manuscripts that have been found since then. In other words, it was a translation of copies of manuscripts and much was translated from a Latin translation of the Greek and Hebrew. So when people in the 1600s were trying to translate words they didn't really fully understand the meaning of, then they used words that were common at that time. I have more Bibles than most people should have. Only 1 of those uses the word "Unicorn" and that's the King James Version. So you can't say that theists have to believe in unicorns because the bible says so, because the bible doesn't really say so.

By the way, I'm not happy to be in a position of defending the Bible, it's just that atheists need to be more accurate when we attack it.
You may be right. Perhaps the people behind the KJV didn't translate it well. I don't have the ability to read Hebrew, so I can't look at the original words and pull out my own translation. But it should be noted that those who put together the KJV were trying the best they could to give an accurate translation, even against personal interest. It's fair to say that there's at least a possibility that later translations tried to edit these mythologies out in their best interest. But again, I have no way to know for certain because I can't look at the original Hebrew, so it's possible that you're right and the KJV translators were awful at their job.

I think it should also be noted that these things only show up in Isaiah (except of course for a reference to "Rahab" the sea monster in Psalms 89:10 and Leviathan in the book of Job). If the KJV translators were having a tricky time with several animal names, they didn't seem to have this same problem throughout the bible.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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27-04-2012, 11:47 PM
RE: Did Isaiah Believe in Bigfoot?
I was going to say what Erxomai just said... so no need.

Starcrash, look up those words in the Hebrew on biblos. You'll see that they were mistranslated. Also, you should know better than to use the KJV.

tsk tsk tsk

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27-04-2012, 11:51 PM
RE: Did Isaiah Believe in Bigfoot?
(27-04-2012 09:38 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(27-04-2012 08:49 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  In this specific case, it's not changing the "original." The King James Version was created in the 1600's using manuscripts that aren't as old as manuscripts that have been found since then. In other words, it was a translation of copies of manuscripts and much was translated from a Latin translation of the Greek and Hebrew. So when people in the 1600s were trying to translate words they didn't really fully understand the meaning of, then they used words that were common at that time. I have more Bibles than most people should have. Only 1 of those uses the word "Unicorn" and that's the King James Version. So you can't say that theists have to believe in unicorns because the bible says so, because the bible doesn't really say so.

By the way, I'm not happy to be in a position of defending the Bible, it's just that atheists need to be more accurate when we attack it.
You may be right. Perhaps the people behind the KJV didn't translate it well. I don't have the ability to read Hebrew, so I can't look at the original words and pull out my own translation. But it should be noted that those who put together the KJV were trying the best they could to give an accurate translation, even against personal interest. It's fair to say that there's at least a possibility that later translations tried to edit these mythologies out in their best interest. But again, I have no way to know for certain because I can't look at the original Hebrew, so it's possible that you're right and the KJV translators were awful at their job.

I think it should also be noted that these things only show up in Isaiah (except of course for a reference to "Rahab" the sea monster in Psalms 89:10 and Leviathan in the book of Job). If the KJV translators were having a tricky time with several animal names, they didn't seem to have this same problem throughout the bible.
I can't speak to the original Hebrew as I focused more on Greek in Seminary. I'm simply speaking to the manuscripts that were used to translate into English. In the 1600s, some of the earliest extant manuscript fragments were only as old as 1000 CE. Much of what was used was from the Latin Vulgate, which Jerome assembled in I think the 4th or 5th Century. He took the Septuagint, which was the Old Testament translated from Hebrew to Greek and then he translated from the Greek to Latin. So already anyone, no matter how wonderful their intentions is apt to lose some of the original meaning. In 1947, when the Dead Sea scrolls were discovered, there were OT fragments that went back to the 2nd Century BCE AND were in Hebrew, not Greek or Latin. Most modern Christian scholars today won't look at the King James unless they're from one of those weird...usually Baptist...cults that will only read from the King James Version, saying if it was good enough for Paul, it's good enough for them! Tongue

All that aside...even IF the Hebrew words can be translated properly as Unicorns and Sea Monsters, that's not the trump card that atheists want it to be. Some would use this as a "Aha! Gotcha!" moment. Essentially saying, "If you believe the Bible is true then you MUST believe in Unicorns!" I hear this same threat thrown out about a flat earth because the Bible mentions the 4 corners of the earth. I can tell you how the mind of a True Believer works...these things don't matter. God inspired Bronze Age folks to write down his message. They would use imagery they knew about, whether it was scientifically true or not. Besides, it's Poetic language conveying a deeper meaning than you're reading on the surface. Edgar Allen Poe didn't believe that Ravens could actually say, "Nevermore." It's a clever device to paint a word picture of the guilt of the protagonist. When John of Patmos described flying scorpions with thick scales of armor, this doesn't have to be taken literally. What if his visions were of our future and he was seeing helicopters? He wouldn't know the word for helicopter so he'd say flying scorpions with thick scales of armor. I'm not defending that the Bible is true. I'm just trying to point out how a True Believer will approach the stuff we think is ridiculous.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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28-04-2012, 02:39 AM
RE: Did Isaiah Believe in Bigfoot?
(27-04-2012 11:51 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  All that aside...even IF the Hebrew words can be translated properly as Unicorns and Sea Monsters, that's not the trump card that atheists want it to be.

Nope. That would be let there be light. You know, when you're standing there with the Bic after soaking them in gas...

Yeah, I wuz thinking that. My Gwynnies is a jealous god. It's only kinda horrible that I wuz thinking about flazing people up, which is mostly from the frustration inspired by knowing shit. Like how it doesn't matter a single fuck "what the Bible says" cause a believer gonna believe. And ya cannot make somebody "stop believing," there's inertia involved. Like if you slam on the brakes, you'd go sailing through the windshield if the change in velocity was not gradual.

Show of hands - who wants to burn KC at the stake? Guy seems all understanding and lovable, right? Then he says shit like - I'm an elect, we all exist to give purpose to Jesus, but I'm all logical and stuff. I don't equivocate. Na-na nana na. Tongue But what happens if Jesus-in-the-brain starts whispering "flick my Bic?" How long is it gonna be before "taste the rainbow" KC starts seeing shit in black and white if the voices in his head start telling him to prove his loyalty?

You got voices in your head like that? Of course you do. Every time you justify, you got Justice whispering in your ear causing you to utter things like, "just, but, I have a family..." You got your life and you think you got the right to live, but you don't. If you're not elected to do the burning, you're gonna get burnt. That's life. You have the right to feed the flames.

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28-04-2012, 06:31 AM
RE: Did Isaiah Believe in Bigfoot?
(27-04-2012 11:51 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(27-04-2012 09:38 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
I can't speak to the original Hebrew as I focused more on Greek in Seminary. I'm simply speaking to the manuscripts that were used to translate into English. In the 1600s, some of the earliest extant manuscript fragments were only as old as 1000 CE. Much of what was used was from the Latin Vulgate, which Jerome assembled in I think the 4th or 5th Century. He took the Septuagint, which was the Old Testament translated from Hebrew to Greek and then he translated from the Greek to Latin. So already anyone, no matter how wonderful their intentions is apt to lose some of the original meaning. In 1947, when the Dead Sea scrolls were discovered, there were OT fragments that went back to the 2nd Century BCE AND were in Hebrew, not Greek or Latin. Most modern Christian scholars today won't look at the King James unless they're from one of those weird...usually Baptist...cults that will only read from the King James Version, saying if it was good enough for Paul, it's good enough for them! Tongue

All that aside...even IF the Hebrew words can be translated properly as Unicorns and Sea Monsters, that's not the trump card that atheists want it to be. Some would use this as a "Aha! Gotcha!" moment. Essentially saying, "If you believe the Bible is true then you MUST believe in Unicorns!" I hear this same threat thrown out about a flat earth because the Bible mentions the 4 corners of the earth. I can tell you how the mind of a True Believer works...these things don't matter. God inspired Bronze Age folks to write down his message. They would use imagery they knew about, whether it was scientifically true or not. Besides, it's Poetic language conveying a deeper meaning than you're reading on the surface. Edgar Allen Poe didn't believe that Ravens could actually say, "Nevermore." It's a clever device to paint a word picture of the guilt of the protagonist. When John of Patmos described flying scorpions with thick scales of armor, this doesn't have to be taken literally. What if his visions were of our future and he was seeing helicopters? He wouldn't know the word for helicopter so he'd say flying scorpions with thick scales of armor. I'm not defending that the Bible is true. I'm just trying to point out how a True Believer will approach the stuff we think is ridiculous.
I don't think this is the "knockdown argument" against Christianity or against bible literalism. If I wanted that, I wouldn't even have to leave Isaiah, where we have prophecies that clearly didn't come true: the utter destruction of Babylon and Damascus, both of which are doing fine.

13:19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.13:20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation:neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there


17:1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.


I merely thought it was funny that we'd find these things in Isaiah. There's nothing wrong with quoting the KJV --- it is, after all, a translation of the bible that Christians would have us believe was divinely inspired and guided, despite the silly words we find inside of it. Stop trying to defend it as the retarded child of the various translations that was never meant to be. For hundreds of years, it was the only translation available to English-speaking Christians, and therefore I think it deserves all the mockery and attention that it receives here.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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28-04-2012, 11:18 AM
RE: Did Isaiah Believe in Bigfoot?
Sorry, I wasn't trying to spoil the fun, Starcrash. It is good stuff and worthy of mockery.


Johnny, here is my show of hands...
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It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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28-04-2012, 05:12 PM
RE: Did Isaiah Believe in Bigfoot?
(28-04-2012 11:18 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  Johnny, here is my show of hands...

I wuz all wound up. Blush

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