Did Jesus DIE for our sins?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
03-11-2014, 05:59 AM
RE: Did Jesus DIE for our sins?
(03-11-2014 05:53 AM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  
(03-11-2014 05:30 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  Its really too bad the majority of you have nothing above a single little childish quip every time you post and never have anything intelligent on the subject.. A debate against those unarmed with intellectually inclined comments and credible source material is pretty boring. Its like... winning by default
Humans, based upon that idiotic story of Adam and Eve, didn't willfully sell themselves into slavery to Satan. They were duped by the greatest of all tricksters who was allowed to enter Eden by your bumbling ball of infallibility. I repeat, humans did not sell themselves to Satan.

Yup... like I said every time you open your mouth you show you know nothing about Christian doctrine... Don't presume to teach me anything until you know a bit yourself Smile

Yes... humans DID sell themselves to satan... you've watched too much tv and trying to envision this as a black arts ritual.

Man chose rebellion... man gave his dominion to satan including dominion over man... just handed it to him Smile

Read a theology book or a bible or something sheesh lmao

LEARN something Smile
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-11-2014, 06:11 AM
RE: Did Jesus DIE for our sins?
(03-11-2014 05:59 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  
(03-11-2014 05:53 AM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  Humans, based upon that idiotic story of Adam and Eve, didn't willfully sell themselves into slavery to Satan. They were duped by the greatest of all tricksters who was allowed to enter Eden by your bumbling ball of infallibility. I repeat, humans did not sell themselves to Satan.

Yup... like I said every time you open your mouth you show you know nothing about Christian doctrine... Don't presume to teach me anything until you know a bit yourself Smile

Yes... humans DID sell themselves to satan... you've watched too much tv and trying to envision this as a black arts ritual.

Man chose rebellion... man gave his dominion to satan including dominion over man... just handed it to him Smile

Read a theology book or a bible or something sheesh lmao

LEARN something Smile

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness; I make peace, and create Evil: I the Lord do all these things.

God allowed it all to happen with the foresight to know the end game, or God didn't know what was going to happen, didn't create and allow Satan to sell his 'snake oil' in the first place, and he isn't all your trying to make him out to be.

Of course, I prefer option three...It's all a bunch of bullshit.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Fodder_From_The_Truth's post
03-11-2014, 06:15 AM
RE: Did Jesus DIE for our sins?
(03-11-2014 05:54 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  
(03-11-2014 05:39 AM)OddGamer Wrote:  Would I give up what god supposedly gave up to purchase back a child from slavery? Sure. Why not? God lost nothing. Zero. Zilch. He was mildly inconvenienced for a bit.

Lets test that theory.

1) You teach love... that the fulfilling of the law is in NOT casting the stone.
2) Your message of love is found to be a threat to those in leadership who are corrupted and greedy and they begin campaigns against you.
3) For your message of love you are openly accused of being satan, the very party you will pay off with your own blood
4) You are falsely arrested
5) You are brutally beaten
6) You are convicted in a kangaroo court with people paid to lie against you
7) You are beaten more and dragged to the Roman procurator asking them to kill you
8) You are beaten more as you are then taken to the king, and he sees to it you are beaten and sent back to the procurator.
9) The procurator, in an effort to save your life, has you unmercifully beaten with a cat o 9 tails.
10) The crowd you had healed and taught love to, then began calling out for your crucifixion
11) You carry your own cross while still being beaten to your own crucifixion
12) Nails fasten your wrists and feet to the cross
13) You hang there naked before the mocking crowd until you die

Youd consider this a walk in the park if you went through this?
Why are you asking what I would consider that to be like? I don't have an infinite lifespan. God does (eternal). I don't know what utter agony feels like. God does (omniscient), and did prior to doing anything. I wouldn't be able to stop it if I felt like (pain studies clearly show we can tolerate a lot more pain if we know we can stop it whenever we like, even if we choose not to). God could have (omnipotent). This is the reason for the analogies I gave (which you didn't bother to quote).

Plus, you forgot to mention the part in your list where I advocate breaking up families and communities (bringing the sword), and advocate that we lovingly physically assault our employees.

And, finally, you ignored the rest of, and vast majority of, my post.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-11-2014, 06:26 AM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2014 06:29 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Did Jesus DIE for our sins?
(03-11-2014 05:45 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  
(03-11-2014 05:26 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I know all about "Christian doctrine". You are STILL implying your powerless deity is SUBJECT to Reality, and not it's master. Whatever the reason he was was executed, it wasn't what Christians CLAIM it was.
Matthew 26:39 "Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, 'My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.' " No ONE deity has more the ONE will.
"Substitutionary atonement" was cooked up to justify the death of a supposed messiah, who never got his job done. It implies the deity is SUBJECT to Reality, not it's master. An omnipotent, omniscient deity could have cooked up another way to do anything it wanted.

Grow up.

Youre suggesting God, cheat, break His own law showing lack of integrity, just snap His fingers and correct all our wrongs, pay our new owner NOTHING for the slaves he bought, and telling ME to grow up.

Like I said, you know NOTHING about Christian doctrine.

Nope. YOU are suggesting your god is not a MASTER of Reality, but subject to it.
"Paying for something" was NOT the role of a messiah. It's a fundamentalist childish pile of crap. What "wrongs" got corrected ? NOTHING changed. At all.
Did Jesus say "I will die for your sins" ? Never once. Substitutionary atonement is post-facto rationalization for a death that was not supposed to happen.

Knowing about a pile of shit, makes the pile of shit no less a pile of shit.
Your cult IS a pile of shit.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 7 users Like Bucky Ball's post
03-11-2014, 06:43 AM
RE: Did Jesus DIE for our sins?
(03-11-2014 05:07 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  
(03-11-2014 04:57 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  An omnipotent deity would have the power to do anything it chose. Anything else implies that a deity is subject to some system or other in Reality. There is no Christian doctrine that says Jebus *had* to die to *release* anyone *from their guilt*.

You just really don't know shit about Christian doctrine do you?

A DISHONEST deity would use His powers to break His own laws... so sure if one is dishonest and has no integrity that may be the type of god they'd follow.

Man sold his dominion and his allegiance and gave over his independence to subject himself to ownership. You can see today where a world trying to stamp out God has gotten us to.

God wasn't about to "start all over" because WE fucked up. Nor was He about to break His own just laws. Satan now had ownership and we were broken off with no way back... God loved His children, and bought us back with His own blood. But you don't have to choose to accept that freedom to be able to return... youre free to go your own way Smile

NOW you know a little bit about Christian doctrine Smile

"You just really don't know shit about Christian doctrine do you?"

Oh the irony Wink
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Mark Fulton's post
03-11-2014, 07:06 AM
RE: Did Jesus DIE for our sins?
(03-11-2014 04:32 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  
(03-11-2014 04:12 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(03-11-2014 03:33 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  Wow you didn't even understand the question... shows how uneducated you are in this... PLUS youre just wrong on many levels here

1) http://vridar.org/2013/03/08/new-date-fo...pyrus-p52/

In other words it can be as early as 80 AD
Except that it's the earliest out of a set of contested dates. Even at this earliest, it's still 5 decades, or a few generations, after the supposed events. Still doesn't even get you remotely close to eye-witness testimony.
And the earliest manuscript evidence for Alexander the great is 10th century, but you have a double standard and believe Alexander existed even though the earliest manuscript evidence is 1500 years after his lifetime. Smile

Not at all, but this just shows how desperate you are for grasping at straws and (once again) false analogies. Is everything written about Alexander the Great true? Hell no. But we can at least determine from historical evidence that he actually existed, and was the leader of a number of Greek city-states and embarked upon massive campaigns that took him across the Mediterranean, Africa, and the Middle East. Alexander was attested to by his allies, his enemies, and neutral observers. Alexander is also historically dependent, his actions having lasting repercussions throughout history. The only thing required to explain Christianity is a belief in Jesus, he didn't actually have to exist, Jesus is not historically dependent. We also have coins minted with Alexander's name and portrait on them, we have statues and busts carved of his likeness, we even have a city named after him (Alexandria, Egypt).

We have none of this for Jesus. Try again ignoramus.



(03-11-2014 04:32 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  
(03-11-2014 04:12 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(03-11-2014 03:33 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  2) Nice googling, but you didnt google enough... p 52 is not longer the oldest fragment. Now the oldest fragment comes from Mark and dates as early as 50 AD.
And yet no citation.

That's because it was already given.. don't you read these posts?
Smile
http://www.dts.edu/read/wallace-new-test...t-century/

Not only this, but the first-century fragment is from Mark’s Gospel. Before the discovery of this fragment, the oldest manuscript that had Mark in it was P45, from the early third century (c. AD 200–250). This new fragment would predate that by 100 to 150 years.

AND the gnostic gospels also date to the mid first century

^^^Going by the earlier estimates this places Mark at 50 AD

Uh, did you read the articles you cited? Consider


“New” Date for that St John’s Fragment, Rylands Library Papyrus P52

A blog article dated 2013-03-08.

Quote:The point of the recent article? Again, Hurtado:

The object of the recent article is a critique of the tendencies of a few scholars in NT studies to push for early datings of NT manuscripts, sometimes highly improbably early datings.

Quote:In conclusion, Orsine and Clarysse chastise biblical scholars for embracing unsupportably early dates for their manuscripts:

There are no first century New Testament papyri and only very few can be attributed to the second century (P52, P90, P104, probably all the second half of the century) or somewhere between the late second and early third centuries (P30, P64+67+4, 0171, 0212).

Biblical scholars should realise that some of the dates proposed by some of their colleagues are not acceptable to Greek palaeographers and papyrologists.


The article includes a wonderful table of 11 scripts for comparison, as well as cross-references for 91 manuscripts and the dates assigned to them Comfort-Barrett, Jaroš, Nestle-Aland and Orsine and Clarysse.

Also, that article says nothing about the supposed fist century fragment of Mark. All the article I could find on such short notice are all just Christian blogs and news sites regurgitation the presentation talking-points. They're all form 2012, make a note that the actual study that shows the actual work of how they were dated wouldn't be shown until 2013. It's now the end of 2014, and these are all that comes up with relevant searches. If you have specific citations, then post them. The one link you've given actually argues against your point, not for it.; which you'd know if you had actually read it.


Unless you were referring to that dts.edu link, which is broken, because you cannot format to save your life.

But hey, someone around here needs to know 'how to internet', so here is an un-fucked-up link for everyone else.


Dr. Wallace: Earliest Manuscript of the New Testament Discovered?

The article is dated back to February 9, 2012, written by the gentleman making the claim for the single first century piece of Mark (Dr. Wallace), which once again pre-dates the release of the actual research paper (which he claims would happen in 2013), and even then it shows that he is within the extreme minority opinion here. He does not at all represent the current consensus of biblical scholarship, but I could see how that wouldn't bother someone who's only looking for confirmatory evidence for the earliest manuscript possible, and not where the most reliable or reasonable date estimates are based on the best available evidence. But when has 'reason' ever stopped the fringe wing-nuts?

So can you cough up an article that is more than just another copy-pasta of this Dr. Wallace's talking points from his pre-research-paper-release?



(03-11-2014 04:32 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  
(03-11-2014 04:12 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(03-11-2014 03:33 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  3) You don't even know what I mean when I say I want the most popular and widespread manuscript types... from the first to the 4th century. What are they?
You never specified that, this is you just trying to post hoc something to whine about.
Youre the whiner and the one being corrected. ANYONE familiar with the manuscripts would have known exactly what I said... Now.. tell me about the manuscript history.

No, anyone who was psychic and could infer your exact specific meaning from a not-at-all-specific turn of phrase, possibly could have. Then again, you could always pull your own head out of your own ass.



(03-11-2014 04:32 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  
(03-11-2014 04:12 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(03-11-2014 03:33 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  4) Give me their ages and where they were found?
Clearly you have Google, and yet you're unable to cite anything. Curious.
No.. clearly Im the only one in this thread that knows anything about the early manuscripts. So tell me what they are, when they dated to, and where they were found... or just shaddup Tongue

I don't suppose you made time to learn how to spell, or use spell-check, or even how to properly format (or at the very least double-check your Preview) forum posts between all of that vigorous internet research you've done?

Question: Does acting like this increase your Jesus E-peen?



(03-11-2014 03:33 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  You got all the above wrong... AGAIN, so lets see how much more you can get wrong... again Smile

Hey dumbass, still can't be bothered to proof-read your bullshit before posting it? Weeping

[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like EvolutionKills's post
03-11-2014, 07:27 AM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2014 08:22 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Did Jesus DIE for our sins?
(03-11-2014 05:54 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  
(03-11-2014 05:39 AM)OddGamer Wrote:  Would I give up what god supposedly gave up to purchase back a child from slavery? Sure. Why not? God lost nothing. Zero. Zilch. He was mildly inconvenienced for a bit.

Lets test that theory.

1) You teach love... that the fulfilling of the law is in NOT casting the stone.
2) Your message of love is found to be a threat to those in leadership who are corrupted and greedy and they begin campaigns against you.
3) For your message of love you are openly accused of being satan, the very party you will pay off with your own blood
4) You are falsely arrested
5) You are brutally beaten
6) You are convicted in a kangaroo court with people paid to lie against you
7) You are beaten more and dragged to the Roman procurator asking them to kill you
8) You are beaten more as you are then taken to the king, and he sees to it you are beaten and sent back to the procurator.
9) The procurator, in an effort to save your life, has you unmercifully beaten with a cat o 9 tails.
10) The crowd you had healed and taught love to, then began calling out for your crucifixion
11) You carry your own cross while still being beaten to your own crucifixion
12) Nails fasten your wrists and feet to the cross
13) You hang there naked before the mocking crowd until you die

Youd consider this a walk in the park if you went through this?

Never happened. Any of it. A passion cooked up just like all the other "hero passions" of the day.
Jesus was not unique in any way, in teaching the "love your neighbor-turn the cheek thing". It was quite the fad of the rabbis in the early Diaspora.

All the rest is myth, and you have not a shred of proof. You have not a shred of evidence that any of it happened,
and in fact there are so many holes in it all, that any reasonable person would question the whole thing.
1. There was no trial. The Sanhedrin was never once in all of history called into session on Passover weekend, and the Sanhedrin records do not support it ever happening, and no JEW ever mentions it.
2. Galilean peasants were never brought in front of Roman aristocrats. In the Pax Romana, trouble-makers were summarily executed.
3. Matthew says the Jewish Temple curtain was torn. It never happened. No Jew ever once mentions this spontaneous monumental event to their central worship site.
4. Matthew says many others rose, graves were opened, and rocks were split. Never happened. NOT ONE non-believer says ONE THING about the zombie invasion of Jerusalem, yet there were Jews who wrote about all sorts of other much less unique happenings of the time.
5. If they had gone to all the trouble to arrest and execute him, why, on hearing reports about him, was no search and re-arrest party mounted ?
6. The "Last Supper" could never have happened. Jews don't drink blood. It was an abomination.

The entire ball of wax reeks of a much later, non-Jewish fantasy cooked up by those desperate to create and keep a new cult alive.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Bucky Ball's post
03-11-2014, 08:05 AM
RE: Did Jesus DIE for our sins?
(03-11-2014 01:30 AM)godnads Wrote:  Right, we've all heard the story about how God sent his son Jesus to die on the cross for our sins and three days later he rose from the dead.

My questions to Christians - Did God cheat?

I mean.. yes it's high and mighty to sacrific your own son to a bunch of people, but this is God you are talking about. Yes, he allowed for his son to die, but three days later, he reincarnated him.

Isn't that cheating?

I think he isn't that great after all.

Two days later, not three. Do you even math? Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-11-2014, 08:11 AM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2014 09:56 AM by Can_of_Beans.)
RE: Did Jesus DIE for our sins?
(03-11-2014 02:50 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  
(03-11-2014 02:46 AM)Can_of_Beans Wrote:  According to Lawrence Krauss, "It seems to me amazing that you solve the problems of the world by having [Jesus] violently tortured and sacraficed for the sins of a nonexistent for-bearer who made the mistake of taking an apple from a rib woman."

at about 27:42 Smile

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaHxBFwod9Q

I see you aren't knowledgeable about the symbology of the ancient Hebrew . So why do you post if its just going to be wrong every time? Smile

The subject is whether or not God cheated... you should stop spamming and discuss whether He cheated or not.

1. I'm willing to admit that I'm not especially knowledgeable about the symbology of the ancient Hebrew, but do you know who is? The Jews. And they reject this Jesus character too.

2. The arrogance of Chrisitians when it comes to Jewish scripture is amazing. They appropriate it, claim to understand it better than the people it belonged to, label it "Old" and then claim that their favorite hippie lets them disregard everything in it except for Original Sin™ and Hating Gay People™. Dodgy

"I feel as though the camera is almost a kind of voyeur in Mr. Beans life, and you just watch this bizarre man going about his life in the way that he wants to."

-Rowan Atkinson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Can_of_Beans's post
03-11-2014, 09:46 AM
RE: Did Jesus DIE for our sins?
(03-11-2014 02:13 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  You guys don't know very much about your theology do you?

Lets say we lived in the days of legal slavery... not like we don't subtly live in slavery now, in many regards, but I mean the blatant slavery like was experienced in ancient middle eastern and european city-states.

Lets say One of your children, although you were wealthy, sold themselves into slavery because they couldn't wait on your inheritance. It doesn't become long before they find the slave master isn't the nice guy helping them out, that they imagined when they sold themselves for a fee.

If it looked to you like your child was going to live the rest of his life in abuse and misery and then die enslaved. Would you PAY to buy back your child? Yes or no?

The correct action in this situation is to disown said child for being dangerous levels of stupid and impatient, and run any other children through a refresher course on how the world works. Drinking Beverage

Popcorn I put more thought into fiction than theists put into reality.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: