Did Jesus DIE for our sins?
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03-11-2014, 02:55 AM
RE: Did Jesus DIE for our sins?
(03-11-2014 02:40 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  
(03-11-2014 02:28 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  So I take it that reading comprehension and imagination were not high on your to-do list growing up?

Keyword there is omnipotent. While it's meaning is fun to ponder, it's place in the Bible makes the whole thing absurd. An all-powerful creator of the universe need not employ a convoluted Rube Goldberg mechanism of substitutionary atonement in order to fix a system he broke in the first place.

So in other words, why buy back the slave when you have to power to fix things instantly by will alone? Apparently you lack the imagination to contemplate these things. Drinking Beverage
Didn't you guys say that would be cheating? Doesn't ANYTHING please you?

Substitutionary atonement is bullshit, this idea that personal responsibility can be traded like stocks is bullshit. But assuming it was true, one doesn't need this convoluted mess when an omnipotent being could fix it instantly by will alone.

Once again, you appear to lack the imagination for such contemplation.


(03-11-2014 02:40 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  First youre complaining that God was cheating, and when its shown He paid our price with His own blood, taking the hard way and not cheating at all... now you want to reverse it and say He should have cheated, which was your original charge against Him in the first place.

Nothing has been shown. Empty claims have been asserted, but they are still empty. Lacking any evidence for the existence of 'sin', it's interaction with our reality, or for any of the claims made in the Gospels, leaves us with zero reason to accept any of it at face value. We can still entertain the ideas presented and pick them apart via mental gymnastics, but that by no means lends them any credence of plausibility or truth.

So maybe you need to get back to the drawing board and come up with a way to demonstrate the existence of 'sin', then maybe the rest of us will take you seriously.


(03-11-2014 02:40 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  Make up your minds what you mean and what you want.

It is simply this, (and it is so comically sad that it must be explain to you in this way) we don't take any of it on faith. But even when we grant the assumptions for the basis or argument, it is still a nonsensical convoluted mess.

We can explore these ideas without adopting them. Apparently that is an alien concept for you?


(03-11-2014 02:40 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  He took no shortcuts... He bought us back with His own blood.. So what... you want Him to cheat and BLINK THINGS RIGHT or you want Him to do it right... in ways that show the character WE should strive for?

There is zero evidence to support any of it. Now just granting the assumption of an all-powerful god, why do you think that needlessly jumping through all of these hoops is necessary when the god in question has the power to fix everything instantly if he so desired? If the end-goal was human salvation, then why not simply forgive? Or never create sin in the first place? If there exists a Heaven with free-will, then why create this universe if he was clearly capable of making a better one? Your assumptions leave you with more hard questions that cannot be answered or explained away by the pedantically simple answers you've swallowed.

Once again, you appear to lack the imagination to contemplate such questions. Drinking Beverage

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03-11-2014, 02:57 AM
RE: Did Jesus DIE for our sins?
(03-11-2014 02:50 AM)pablo Wrote:  
(03-11-2014 02:43 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  Are you saying you would force your will on them and not allow their own choices? You would make a race of slaves for yourself?

Nope, I didn't say anything like that. You did.
I'm beginning to question your sanity now.

Now youre changing your story... you just said you wouldn t let them be sold into slavery. Now youre saying you wouldnt force their will. Which is it? You let them make their own decisions? You make a race of slaves?
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03-11-2014, 03:00 AM
RE: Did Jesus DIE for our sins?
(03-11-2014 02:54 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  
(03-11-2014 02:34 AM)pablo Wrote:  According to your book they crucified him, then there's that whole spear in the side thing.
I'd say according to that, they had a problem with him.
That is of course if he even existed at all.

Well there you go again showing everything you don't know lmao

Pilot grudgingly conceded to a potentially riotous crowd. He tried to release Christ.

You speak of the Roman soldier who pierced His side... The centurion also said "Surely this was the Son of God".

So... back to the question youre avoiding... Would you buy your child back out of slavery or would you let them die miserably as a slave?

You're not too bright are you? You're talking about a fairy tale like it really happened. Unless you have any evidence of any kind, I'm just going to keep mocking your ignorance with glee.
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03-11-2014, 03:00 AM
RE: Did Jesus DIE for our sins?
(03-11-2014 02:55 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(03-11-2014 02:40 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  Didn't you guys say that would be cheating? Doesn't ANYTHING please you?

Substitutionary atonement is bullshit, this idea that [b]personal responsibility can be traded like stocks is bullshit. But assuming it was true, one doesn't need this convoluted mess when an omnipotent being could fix it instantly by will alone.

Once again, you appear to lack the imagination for such contemplation.


(03-11-2014 02:40 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  First youre complaining that God was cheating, and when its shown He paid our price with His own blood, taking the hard way and not cheating at all... now you want to reverse it and say He should have cheated, which was your original charge against Him in the first place.

Nothing has been shown. Empty claims have been asserted, but they are still empty. Lacking any evidence for the existence of 'sin', it's interaction with our reality, or for any of the claims made in the Gospels, leaves us with zero reason to accept any of it at face value. We can still entertain the ideas presented and pick them apart via mental gymnastics, but that by no means lends them any credence of plausibility or truth.

So maybe you need to get back to the drawing board and come up with a way to demonstrate the existence of 'sin', then maybe the rest of us will take you seriously.


(03-11-2014 02:40 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  Make up your minds what you mean and what you want.

It is simply this, (and it is so comically sad that it must be explain to you in this way) we don't take any of it on faith. But even when we grant the assumptions for the basis or argument, it is still a nonsensical convoluted mess.

We can explore these ideas without adopting them. Apparently that is an alien concept for you?


(03-11-2014 02:40 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  He took no shortcuts... He bought us back with His own blood.. So what... you want Him to cheat and BLINK THINGS RIGHT or you want Him to do it right... in ways that show the character WE should strive for?

If the end-goal was human salvation, then why not simply forgive? Or never create sin in the first place? If there exists a Heaven with free-will, then why create this universe if he was clearly capable of making a better one?

Lets not be morons... If you simply FORGIVE your child that sold themselves into slavery, you've done notta damned thing to buy them back. You HAVE to pay that price to get them back... WOULD YOU ??? Yes or no?

Why cant you guys answer ONE single fucking question in ANY thread youre in?

Because your mouths write checks your asses cant cash
.
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03-11-2014, 03:02 AM
RE: Did Jesus DIE for our sins?
(03-11-2014 02:42 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  
(03-11-2014 02:36 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  This story is hearsay written decades or centuries after the supposed events. Zero evidence that it actually occurred.



Lied? Most likely they never even existed. Zero evidence for their existence, zero eye-witness accounts, everything we do have is hearsay and decades or centuries after the supposed events.



That's a lie. Christianity was still a mostly unknown Podunk fringe cult for centuries.



There are no eye-witness accounts of anything regarding Jesus supposed life, death, or resurrection. Zero.

Also, lying about it won't change the facts, so there is that...

Wow... every time you open your mouth now youre showing what you don't know... Where did the book of mark come from? You tell me.

I cannot, because nobody knows, including yourself. But I can read the literature and consult with experts and understand how they arrive at their consensus, whereas you just uncritically swallow whatever drivel passes for 'knowledge' at your church or bible study. They were anonymously written, decades or centuries after the supposed events by non-eyewitnesses who clearly wrote in fluent Greek and not Hebrew or Aramaic, and the earliest copies we have of the Gospels do not have author attribution and are often missing whole pieces that were added to them by later Christian scribes (the oldest copies of Mark have no ascension or resurrection, they simply end with Jesus dying on the cross, the extended ending was a fabrication that doesn't show up in copies of Mark until centuries later).

I know these things, as well as we can know them, as supported by the best evidence currently available to us. You apparently don't know jack-shit.

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03-11-2014, 03:02 AM
RE: Did Jesus DIE for our sins?
(03-11-2014 03:00 AM)pablo Wrote:  
(03-11-2014 02:54 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  Well there you go again showing everything you don't know lmao

Pilot grudgingly conceded to a potentially riotous crowd. He tried to release Christ.

You speak of the Roman soldier who pierced His side... The centurion also said "Surely this was the Son of God".

So... back to the question youre avoiding... Would you buy your child back out of slavery or would you let them die miserably as a slave?

You're not too bright are you? You're talking about a fairy tale like it really happened. Unless you have any evidence of any kind, I'm just going to keep mocking your ignorance with glee.

Well glee away, and keep showing what you don't know. The thread asks a question, the OP makes his point, and Im here to answer it... why are you not sticking with the topic?

WOULD you buy your children back if they sold themselves into slavery, OR would you let them die in misery as slaves? Which is it?
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03-11-2014, 03:03 AM
RE: Did Jesus DIE for our sins?
(03-11-2014 02:57 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  
(03-11-2014 02:50 AM)pablo Wrote:  Nope, I didn't say anything like that. You did.
I'm beginning to question your sanity now.

Now youre changing your story... you just said you wouldn t let them be sold into slavery. Now youre saying you wouldnt force their will. Which is it? You let them make their own decisions? You make a race of slaves?

My mistake, I didn't realize you're a complete, dishonest, idiot until now.
I'm done with you now, you no longer amuse me.
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03-11-2014, 03:06 AM
RE: Did Jesus DIE for our sins?
Is this really happening?
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03-11-2014, 03:06 AM
RE: Did Jesus DIE for our sins?
(03-11-2014 03:02 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(03-11-2014 02:42 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  Wow... every time you open your mouth now youre showing what you don't know... Where did the book of mark come from? You tell me.

I cannot, because nobody knows, including yourself. But I can read the literature and consult with experts and understand how they arrive at their consensus, whereas you just uncritically swallow whatever drivel passes for 'knowledge' at your church or bible study. They were anonymously written, decades after the supposed events by non-eyewitnesses who clearly wrote in fluent Greek and not Hebrew or Aramaic, and the earliest copies we have of the Gospels do not have author attribution and are often missing who pieces that were added to them by later Christian scribes (the oldest copes of Mark have no ascension or resurrection, they simply end with Jesus dying on the cross, the extended ending was a fabrication that doesn't show up until copies of Mark centuries later).

I know these things, as well as we can know them, as supported by the best evidence currently available to us. You apparently don't know jack-shit.

WOW... you really DONT know a thing about this.

What do you claim are the "oldest manuscripts"? What are they called?
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03-11-2014, 03:08 AM
RE: Did Jesus DIE for our sins?
(03-11-2014 03:03 AM)pablo Wrote:  
(03-11-2014 02:57 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  Now youre changing your story... you just said you wouldn t let them be sold into slavery. Now youre saying you wouldnt force their will. Which is it? You let them make their own decisions? You make a race of slaves?

My mistake, I didn't realize you're a complete, dishonest, idiot until now.
I'm done with you now, you no longer amuse me.

Im sure youre not amused... most children hate a good ass whipping, and I guess youre no exception Smile Wink
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