Poll: Did Jesus Exist?
He was a real person.
Jesus is a complete myth.
He may have been real, but has become so shrouded by myth that we can't know anything about him.
Other- please explain.
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Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
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07-10-2014, 12:58 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(07-10-2014 12:57 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(07-10-2014 12:39 PM)anonymous66 Wrote:  No, I have a some valid questions .. and instead of answering them.. you attacked.

If you don't have any evidence... then stop telling people that the Jesus of the Bible is based on more than one person...

I don't care for it when people tell me their opinion, and then expect me to accept it as fact.

Now, do you have any references, or don't you?

I don't understand. Didn't he give you 5 references in the post you're responding to?

You mean the ones he added after I goaded him?
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07-10-2014, 01:00 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(07-10-2014 12:57 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(07-10-2014 12:39 PM)anonymous66 Wrote:  No, I have a some valid questions .. and instead of answering them.. you attacked.

If you don't have any evidence... then stop telling people that the Jesus of the Bible is based on more than one person...

I don't care for it when people tell me their opinion, and then expect me to accept it as fact.

Now, do you have any references, or don't you?

I don't understand. Didn't he give you 5 references in the post you're responding to?

Hopper....
Mouse visits atheists sites sometimes with this *proof of jesus* stuff. Dont take the bait!
Lol

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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07-10-2014, 01:00 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
I just finished Carrier's "On the Historicity of Jesus" and if I had to put it in numerical terms I went from something like 70% convinced that there was an actual person at the core of the myth to being about 90% convinced that it is totally mythical. (Not by Bayesian math, just a relative measure)

I thought he made some good points about how many of the historians were accepting claims without good evidence and sometimes in the face of better interpretations. He also provided some justifications for not finding the crucifixion to be so unlikely for a mythical figure which I always considered to be a real stumbling block for mythicism. I need to read it again and see the counterarguments but, despite really disliking his style and not seeing justification for some of the claims made, the overall hypothesis makes a lot of sense to me.

That said, I agree with Bucky Ball that it doesn't really matter in the end except as a curiosity. The Jesus that Christians accept didn't exist in anything but name.

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07-10-2014, 01:01 PM (This post was last modified: 07-10-2014 01:15 PM by anonymous66.)
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(07-10-2014 12:54 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Mouse,
If any of us can google for alternative jesus mythos then you can too.
You have to pop outside the edges of the bible or think outside church walls.....however.

?I'm an atheist. Check some of my other posts...

Like it matters. Jesus was either historical or he wasn't.

And, I should point out that I started this thread.. My views have changed somewhat since I first started it.
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07-10-2014, 01:01 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
Here's another one. You "goaded" no one.
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/ch...rst-jesus/

So I see you indeed ARE ignorant of the subject you pretend to know about.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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07-10-2014, 01:05 PM (This post was last modified: 07-10-2014 01:10 PM by anonymous66.)
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(07-10-2014 01:00 PM)unfogged Wrote:  I just finished Carrier's "On the Historicity of Jesus" and if I had to put it in numerical terms I went from something like 70% convinced that there was an actual person at the core of the myth to being about 90% convinced that it is totally mythical. (Not by Bayesian math, just a relative measure)

I thought he made some good points about how many of the historians were accepting claims without good evidence and sometimes in the face of better interpretations. He also provided some justifications for not finding the crucifixion to be so unlikely for a mythical figure which I always considered to be a real stumbling block for mythicism. I need to read it again and see the counterarguments but, despite really disliking his style and not seeing justification for some of the claims made, the overall hypothesis makes a lot of sense to me.

That said, I agree with Bucky Ball that it doesn't really matter in the end except as a curiosity. The Jesus that Christians accept didn't exist in anything but name.

I'm sorry.. but after spending years researching Evolution (yes, I accept it's true), and creationism, and Intelligent Design, I have to admit that Richard Carrier reminds me of Stephen Meyer...

You know, the oddball that argues with the consensus of the experts in the field with his convoluted arguments?

But, while I have listened to virtually every youtube video that features Carrier, and read some of his books, I haven't read On the Historicity of Jesus.

I'm sure I will at some point.
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07-10-2014, 01:08 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
Anyway.. Buckyball, thank you for providing the sources I requested. I'll be sure to check them out...
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07-10-2014, 01:20 PM (This post was last modified: 08-10-2014 08:16 AM by anonymous66.)
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
And I'd be interested in what you think of my site..
http://www.ahistoricaljesus.com

My argument is actually very simple...

Most contemporary scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, and most biblical scholars and classical historians see the theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted.

I propose those experts should be respected and taken seriously.

This is the same line of reasoning I use when I accept evolution and human caused global warming, and why I immunize my child. Could the experts be wrong? Of course they could. But, consider what is most probable. It always comes down to deciding what is most probable.


and I must point out that what mythicists have is an argument from authority. Their expert, Richard Carrier has convinced them.. They say he's an expert, so he should know... I say look into his claims for yourself. Check out his sources... Understand why the experts in the field of ancient history DON'T agree with him.
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07-10-2014, 01:22 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(07-10-2014 11:16 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  I looked into the Christ Myth theory for a while... I'm now very skeptical.... mostly because the experts in the field of history, are in almost in complete agreement that Jesus is a historical figure...
"Most contemporary scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, and most biblical scholars and classical historians see the theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted."

But, also because I researched Price's and Carrier's claims and found them to be wanting.... When I looked into the references they used, I found I could not agree with their claims.

The experts in the field of history deserve our respect. They deserve to be taken seriously.

This is the same line of reasoning I use when I accept evolution and human caused global warming, and why I immunize my child. Could the experts be wrong? Of course they could. But, consider what is most probable. It always comes down to deciding what is most probable.

I'm working on a website (just for fun)... I'd love some feedback... it's still very basic, I know... don't be too hard on me.. http://ahistoricaljesus.com/index.htm

To note, the Wikipedia entry refers to several religious scholars (and one English classicist) and not actual historians, archaeologists, etc.

One of the citations for it (8) states:

Quote:While discussing the "striking" fact that "we don't have any Roman records, of any kind, that attest to the existence of Jesus," Ehrman dismisses claims that this means Jesus never existed, saying, "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees, based on clear and certain evidence."

This note doesn't actually refute the null hypothesis ("Jesus did not exist") and states, "Well it doesn't mean he doesn't exist!" Proof is still needed.

The next sentence is even worse:
Quote:There is no evidence today that the existence of Jesus was ever denied in antiquity by those who opposed Christianity

That's not an argument that points to there being Jesus. If no records from the opposition denied it, that doesn't mean they acknowledged the existence of Jesus. Even then, it doesn't prove anything.
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07-10-2014, 01:33 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(07-10-2014 01:20 PM)anonymous66 Wrote:  And I'd be interested in what you think of my site..
http://www.ahistoricaljesus.com

My argument is actually very simple...

Most contemporary scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, and most biblical scholars and classical historians see the theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted.

I propose those experts should be respected and taken seriously.

This is the same line of reasoning I use when I accept evolution and human caused global warming, and why I immunize my child. Could the experts be wrong? Of course they could. But, consider what is most probable. It always comes down to deciding what is most probable.


and I must point out that what mythicists have is an argument from authority. Thier expert, Richard Carrier has convinced them.. They say he's an expert, so he should know... I say look into his claims for yourself. Check out his sources... Understand why the majority of experts in the field DON'T agree with him..

There is absolutely no contemporaneous evidence of the existence of the Biblical Jesus. Zilch, Zip. Nada.

The Bible is not contemporaneous to the events.

The evidence for a historical Jesus is spectacularly weak.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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