Poll: Did Jesus Exist?
He was a real person.
Jesus is a complete myth.
He may have been real, but has become so shrouded by myth that we can't know anything about him.
Other- please explain.
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Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
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08-10-2014, 04:20 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 04:14 AM)hell-lover Wrote:  Yes that is right.

Then why do you wear a fucking seatbelt?Drinking Beverage

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08-10-2014, 04:40 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 04:00 AM)hell-lover Wrote:  My point was if you weren't there how do you know the bible is wrong?
...

We've read it.

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08-10-2014, 04:43 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 04:00 AM)hell-lover Wrote:  My point was if you weren't there how do you know the bible is wrong? You are having faith the bible is wrong - I am having faith God's word is right. Smile

It doesn't take faith to know any story which involves serpents and donkeys conversing with humans in human dialect is bullshit.

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08-10-2014, 06:02 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 04:00 AM)hell-lover Wrote:  My point was if you weren't there how do you know the bible is wrong? You are having faith the bible is wrong - I am having faith God's word is right. Smile

Oh. So you're a Muslim then.
Since you weren't there when the angel Gabriel dictated the Quran to Muhammad, and that's God's word, you must believe it then.
Got it.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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08-10-2014, 06:52 AM (This post was last modified: 08-10-2014 07:29 AM by anonymous66.)
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(07-10-2014 02:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-10-2014 02:33 PM)anonymous66 Wrote:  Regarding Carrier... I'll get to that.....

Regarding the phrase "most historians"... Are you denying that the following information is valid?

From the same source (Wikipedia):
Quote:There is no physical or archeological evidence for Jesus, and all the sources we have are documentary. The sources for the historical Jesus are mainly Christian writings, such as the gospels and the purported letters of the apostles. The authenticity and reliability of these sources has been questioned by many scholars, and few events mentioned in the gospels are universally accepted.

Quote:The historical analysis techniques used by Biblical scholars have been questioned, and according to James Dunn it is not possible "to construct (from the available data) a Jesus who will be the real Jesus."

My premise is still that a consensus of historians in the field of ancient history accept that Jesus did exist in history.

Quote:Most contemporary scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, and most biblical scholars and classical historians see the theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted.[7][9][10][30][31][32] In antiquity, the existence of Jesus was never denied by those who opposed Christianity.[33][34] There is, however, widespread disagreement among scholars on the details of the life of Jesus mentioned in the gospel narratives, and on the meaning of his teachings.[14] Scholars differ on the historicity of specific episodes described in the Biblical accounts of Jesus,[14] and the only two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.[11][12][13]

So, do you agree with my premise? or not?

It's one thing to claim that Carrier is a mainstream scholar who is merely telling us what other experts (he is trained in ancient history and the classics) in the same field accept....

it's quite another to admit that Carrier is disagreeing with what a vast majority of the other experts in the field are saying.

Carrier is making extraordinary claims in that he is claiming that the body of scholarship in the area of ancient history is wrong when they accept that Jesus did exist in history. He will need to provide extraordinary evidence in order to convince the other experts in the field.. So far, he has failed.
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08-10-2014, 06:58 AM (This post was last modified: 08-10-2014 08:18 AM by anonymous66.)
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(07-10-2014 04:45 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(07-10-2014 02:33 PM)anonymous66 Wrote:  Regarding Carrier... I'll get to that.....

Regarding the phrase "most historians"... Are you denying that the following information is valid?

Yes I am.

Look Bucky.. try to stay with me here..

My premise is that a majority of the experts in the field of ancient history accept that Jesus is a historical figure. I even provided multiple sources to attest to that fact.. If you don't agree with my premise.. then there isn't much to talk about..

I would challenge you to call or email a professor in a secular college of your choice and talk to someone in their classics department and ask them what they think of the historicity of Jesus, and what they make of Carrier's claims..

It's one thing to claim that Carrier is a mainstream scholar who is merely telling us what other experts (he is trained in ancient history and the classics) in the same field accept....

it's quite another to admit that Carrier is disagreeing with what a vast majority of the other experts in the field are saying (you know, kinda like what Stephen Meyer does).

Carrier is making extraordinary claims in that he is claiming that the body of scholarship in the area of ancient history is wrong when they accept that Jesus did exist in history. He will need to provide extraordinary evidence in order to convince the other experts in the field.. So far, he has failed (like Stephen Meyer failed).
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08-10-2014, 08:07 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
Richard Carrier's talk at Zetiticon is up on AronRa's channel:



Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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08-10-2014, 08:08 AM (This post was last modified: 08-10-2014 08:11 AM by anonymous66.)
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?

^Are you also denying that Carrier is disagreeing with a majority of experts in the field of ancient history?
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08-10-2014, 08:09 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?

double post... sorry
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08-10-2014, 08:15 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(07-10-2014 05:13 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  1. No written accounts from anyone who lived at the exact time of when he was around. Everything I am aware of is written 20 years or 200 years afterward which gives more than enough time for rumors and tall tales to arise about anything.

2. No artifacts that can be confirmed to of been owned by him that can be verified through a reliable source.

3. No corpse and special pleading through the story itself where his apparent "physical" body left makes it impossible to ever confirm his actual death or existence.

4. Every event that ever happened in his life, Like all those babies in an entire city of THOUSANDS of people were infanticide. Not one single shred of evidence shows that event ever happened. Nothing, none, shut up..no..your wrong...that does not count as evidence and if that other point your about to make is true, I need to see your sources with the original source material please.

It never happened.


5. Conclusion - Jesus never existed....period.

A friend of mine wrote this.. it applies here..

Quote:There's a lot of shit that isn't contemporary.

Livy wrote about stuff (that happened) centuries before his time.

Zero contemporary sources about Alexander the Great survive, excepting a few fragments.

Herodotus is at least a generation removed from the Persian Wars.

Here's your homework:
Look up the primary sources for Hannibal crossing the Alps. The event took place in 218 BCE.

List the sources for it, and when they were written.
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