Poll: Did Jesus Exist?
He was a real person.
Jesus is a complete myth.
He may have been real, but has become so shrouded by myth that we can't know anything about him.
Other- please explain.
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Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
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08-10-2014, 08:22 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
My website is devoted to explaining what a majority of experts in the field are saying about the historicity of Jesus.. and why...

http://www.ahistoricaljesus.com

It's very basic.. but, I will continue to add to it.
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08-10-2014, 08:28 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 08:08 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  Are you also denying that Carrier is disagreeing with a majority of experts in the field of ancient history?

Even if Carrier is disagreeing with the majority of historians on this point it doesn't make him wrong. He is a peer-reviewed scholar with credentials in this area and his opinion deserves honest evaluation which is exactly what he is now asking for.

I actually find his style annoying and think that he often comes across as a whiny little brat but that doesn't discount his argument. The consensus of historians may, in fact, be wrong. As I said before, he makes what I find to be good points in his latest book and I'm waiting for the actual critical responses and not just the knee-jerk "you're wrong because" from people who haven't taken the time to consider his argument in detail.

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08-10-2014, 08:28 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 06:52 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  
(07-10-2014 02:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  From the same source (Wikipedia):

My premise is still that a consensus of historians in the field of ancient history accept that Jesus did exist in history.

Quote:Most contemporary scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, and most biblical scholars and classical historians see the theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted.[7][9][10][30][31][32] In antiquity, the existence of Jesus was never denied by those who opposed Christianity.[33][34] There is, however, widespread disagreement among scholars on the details of the life of Jesus mentioned in the gospel narratives, and on the meaning of his teachings.[14] Scholars differ on the historicity of specific episodes described in the Biblical accounts of Jesus,[14] and the only two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.[11][12][13]

So, do you agree with my premise? or not?

That the majority opinion is that an actual Jesus existed? Yes, so what?

Quote:It's one thing to claim that Carrier is a mainstream scholar who is merely telling us what other experts (he is trained in ancient history and the classics) in the same field accept....

it's quite another to admit that Carrier is disagreeing with what a vast majority of the other experts in the field are saying.

Carrier is making extraordinary claims in that he is claiming that the body of scholarship in the area of ancient history is wrong when they accept that Jesus did exist in history. He will need to provide extraordinary evidence in order to convince the other experts in the field.. So far, he has failed.

A scholar who just tells us what other experts accept is not telling us anything very interesting.

I don't know if there was or wasn't a Jesus.
There is, as I said, no contemporary corroboration outside the Bible (which itself was not contemporaneous) and no physical evidence whatsoever.

To claim that the Jesus of the Bible existed is, in fact, the extraordinary claim.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-10-2014, 08:32 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 08:28 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-10-2014 06:52 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  My premise is still that a consensus of historians in the field of ancient history accept that Jesus did exist in history.


So, do you agree with my premise? or not?

That the majority opinion is that an actual Jesus existed? Yes, so what?

Quote:It's one thing to claim that Carrier is a mainstream scholar who is merely telling us what other experts (he is trained in ancient history and the classics) in the same field accept....

it's quite another to admit that Carrier is disagreeing with what a vast majority of the other experts in the field are saying.

Carrier is making extraordinary claims in that he is claiming that the body of scholarship in the area of ancient history is wrong when they accept that Jesus did exist in history. He will need to provide extraordinary evidence in order to convince the other experts in the field.. So far, he has failed.

A scholar who just tells us what other experts accept is not telling us anything very interesting.

I don't know if there was or wasn't a Jesus. There is, as I said, no contemporary corroboration outside the Bible (which itself was not contemporaneous) and no physical evidence whatsoever.

To claim that the Jesus of the Bible existed is, in fact, the extraordinary claim.

A friend of mine wrote this.. it applies here..

Quote:There's a lot of shit that isn't contemporary.

Livy wrote about stuff (that happened) centuries before his time.

Zero contemporary sources about Alexander the Great survive, excepting a few fragments.

Herodotus is at least a generation removed from the Persian Wars.

Here's your homework:
Look up the primary sources for Hannibal crossing the Alps. The event took place in 218 BCE.

List the sources for it, and when they were written.

Again..

Why do you suppose a majority of the experts in the field accept that Jesus did exist?

Do you even care?
They spent a lot of time becoming the experts that they are... I think they at least deserve our respect.

Quote:A scholar who just tells us what other experts accept is not telling us anything very interesting.
Do you use the same line of reasoning when it comes to evolution? or human caused global warming? or immunizing your child?
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08-10-2014, 08:35 AM (This post was last modified: 08-10-2014 08:40 AM by anonymous66.)
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 08:28 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(08-10-2014 08:08 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  Are you also denying that Carrier is disagreeing with a majority of experts in the field of ancient history?

Even if Carrier is disagreeing with the majority of historians on this point it doesn't make him wrong. He is a peer-reviewed scholar with credentials in this area and his opinion deserves honest evaluation which is exactly what he is now asking for.

I actually find his style annoying and think that he often comes across as a whiny little brat but that doesn't discount his argument. The consensus of historians may, in fact, be wrong. As I said before, he makes what I find to be good points in his latest book and I'm waiting for the actual critical responses and not just the knee-jerk "you're wrong because" from people who haven't taken the time to consider his argument in detail.


sure... and maybe intelligent design is the best explanation... and maybe I shouldn't immunize my child... and maybe humans really aren't affecting the weather. Rolleyes
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08-10-2014, 08:43 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 08:32 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  Why do you suppose a majority of the experts in the field accept that Jesus did exist?

Because the majority are Christians?

Quote:Do you even care?
They spent a lot of time becoming the experts that they are... I think they at least deserve our respect.

I will not give as much weight to a Christian scholar's opinion as I will to a non-Christian's on this. Confirmation bias, you know.

Quote:
Quote:A scholar who just tells us what other experts accept is not telling us anything very interesting.
Do you use the same line of reasoning when it comes to evolution? or human caused global warming? or immunizing your child?

Yes. I said 'interesting', not 'correct'.

I determine reliable, credible sources and weigh the evidence presented.
Agreement with the majority is not required.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-10-2014, 08:45 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 08:35 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  
(08-10-2014 08:28 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Even if Carrier is disagreeing with the majority of historians on this point it doesn't make him wrong. He is a peer-reviewed scholar with credentials in this area and his opinion deserves honest evaluation which is exactly what he is now asking for.

I actually find his style annoying and think that he often comes across as a whiny little brat but that doesn't discount his argument. The consensus of historians may, in fact, be wrong. As I said before, he makes what I find to be good points in his latest book and I'm waiting for the actual critical responses and not just the knee-jerk "you're wrong because" from people who haven't taken the time to consider his argument in detail.


sure... and maybe intelligent design is the best explanation... and maybe I shouldn't immunize my child... and maybe humans really aren't affecting the weather. Rolleyes

Are you really comparing hard science to textual criticism? Seriously?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-10-2014, 08:50 AM (This post was last modified: 08-10-2014 08:57 AM by anonymous66.)
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 08:45 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-10-2014 08:35 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  sure... and maybe intelligent design is the best explanation... and maybe I shouldn't immunize my child... and maybe humans really aren't affecting the weather. Rolleyes

Are you really comparing hard science to textual criticism? Seriously?

Are you really rejecting the entire field of study that is history? seriously? If so, why pay any attention to Carrier? You do understand that he is a trained historian, right?
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08-10-2014, 08:54 AM (This post was last modified: 08-10-2014 09:03 AM by anonymous66.)
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 08:43 AM)Chas Wrote:  [quote='anonymous66' pid='660482' dateline='1412778724']


Yes. I said 'interesting', not 'correct'.

I determine reliable, credible sources and weigh the evidence presented.
Agreement with the majority is not required.
sure... sometimes the majority is wrong... Plate tectonics comes to mind.. as does the fellow who proved that stomach ulcers are caused by a virus, not stress.
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08-10-2014, 09:03 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 08:43 AM)Chas Wrote:  [quote='anonymous66' pid='660482' dateline='1412778724']



Because the majority are Christians?
Facepalm
I'll give you the same challenge I gave Bucky.. Pick a secular school with a classics department.. call or email them... ask them what they think of the historicity of Jesus, and ask them what they think of Carrier's claims..

Call around to a few schools if you like....
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