Poll: Did Jesus Exist?
He was a real person.
Jesus is a complete myth.
He may have been real, but has become so shrouded by myth that we can't know anything about him.
Other- please explain.
[Show Results]
 
Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 2 Votes - 5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
08-10-2014, 09:06 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
if you want to understand what secular historians say about Jesus.... check this out... The instructor, Dale Martin, is openly gay, and teaches at Yale.

Here's an open Yale course RLST 152: Introduction to the New Testament History and Literature.

Here are the videos of his lectures.


Professor

Dale B. Martin, Woolsey Professor of Religious Studies
Description

This course provides a historical study of the origins of Christianity by analyzing the literature of the earliest Christian movements in historical context, concentrating on the New Testament. Although theological themes will occupy much of our attention, the course does not attempt a theological appropriation of the New Testament as scripture. Rather, the importance of the New Testament and other early Christian documents as ancient literature and as sources for historical study will be emphasized. A central organizing theme of the course will focus on the differences within early Christianity (-ies).
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-10-2014, 09:08 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 08:50 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  
(08-10-2014 08:45 AM)Chas Wrote:  Are you really comparing hard science to textual criticism? Seriously?

Are you really rejecting the entire field of study that is history? seriously? If so, why pay any attention to Carrier? You do understand that he is a trained historian, right?

Non sequitur. I didn't reject the study of history. Please quote where I did that.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-10-2014, 09:10 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 09:03 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  
(08-10-2014 08:43 AM)Chas Wrote:  [quote='anonymous66' pid='660482' dateline='1412778724']



Because the majority are Christians?
Facepalm
I'll give you the same challenge I gave Bucky.. Pick a secular school with a classics department.. call or email them... ask them what they think of the historicity of Jesus, and ask them what they think of Carrier's claims..

Call around to a few schools if you like....

Yet another non sequitur.

Why don't you call around and ask if they're Christians.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-10-2014, 09:11 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 09:06 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  if you want to understand what secular historians say about Jesus.... check this out... The instructor, Dale Martin, is openly gay, and teaches at Yale.

Here's an open Yale course RLST 152: Introduction to the New Testament History and Literature.

Here are the videos of his lectures.


Professor

Dale B. Martin, Woolsey Professor of Religious Studies
Description

This course provides a historical study of the origins of Christianity by analyzing the literature of the earliest Christian movements in historical context, concentrating on the New Testament. Although theological themes will occupy much of our attention, the course does not attempt a theological appropriation of the New Testament as scripture. Rather, the importance of the New Testament and other early Christian documents as ancient literature and as sources for historical study will be emphasized. A central organizing theme of the course will focus on the differences within early Christianity (-ies).

Try reading that syllabus again. There is nothing about the historicity of Jesus in there.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-10-2014, 09:11 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 06:58 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  
(07-10-2014 04:45 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Yes I am.

Look Bucky.. try to stay with me here..

My premise is that a majority of the experts in the field of ancient history accept that Jesus is a historical figure. I even provided multiple sources to attest to that fact.. If you don't agree with my premise.. then there isn't much to talk about..

I would challenge you to call or email a professor in a secular college of your choice and talk to someone in their classics department and ask them what they think of the historicity of Jesus, and what they make of Carrier's claims..

It's one thing to claim that Carrier is a mainstream scholar who is merely telling us what other experts (he is trained in ancient history and the classics) in the same field accept....

it's quite another to admit that Carrier is disagreeing with what a vast majority of the other experts in the field are saying (you know, kinda like what Stephen Meyer does).

Carrier is making extraordinary claims in that he is claiming that the body of scholarship in the area of ancient history is wrong when they accept that Jesus did exist in history. He will need to provide extraordinary evidence in order to convince the other experts in the field.. So far, he has failed (like Stephen Meyer failed).

No. You have failed. I don't need to "stay with you" anywhere.
I am a graduate student IN the field. I do not need to email anyone.
Your reply is totally inadequate. As for Carrier, you said you would "get to him".
You need to refute INDIVIDUAL POINTS. Asserting he goes "against the body of scholarship" is a nothing reply.

But what I am going to do, is look up each of the references you gave and see exactly what qualifications they hold, and what their particular sub-specialties are. If indeed, as I suspect, they are not actually qualified in THIS particular field, what you will have done (besides answering NOT ONE of my points), is commit the Aurgumentum ad Vericundiam fallacy. So, we'll see exactly what they are qualified in. You have also failed to post the polls as requested.

You didn't even know about the "other Jesuses" yet you claimed you had done an exhaustive review. So you are a fraud. I will work on demolishing the rest of your "majority of experts" claim. So far you are a total idiot.

Have a nice day.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Bucky Ball's post
08-10-2014, 09:13 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 08:35 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  sure... and maybe intelligent design is the best explanation... and maybe I shouldn't immunize my child... and maybe humans really aren't affecting the weather. Rolleyes

None of those are serious claims being made by experts in the related fields and, even so, the experts have considered them and found them wanting. If somebody can provide compelling evidence then even those positions would have to be reconsidered.

Carrier IS an expert in the area in which he is making claims and the experts are only beginning to review his work. Your outright dismissal is unjustified, especially when you admit that you haven't actually read what he is claiming and reviewed the evidence that he is presenting.

You are basically saying that the evidence is in, the experts voted, and Jesus existed by majority vote so case closed. That is not science, that's religion. The consensus of experts deserves consideration, and even respect, but not dogmatic adherence.

By the way:
Quote:There's a lot of shit that isn't contemporary.
Livy wrote about stuff (that happened) centuries before his time.

So what. If we know it happened that means we must have evidence for it and the fact that some later writings support or deny earlier evidence can be taken into account and given the weight it deserves.

Quote:Zero contemporary sources about Alexander the Great survive, excepting a few fragments.

Which is still more than we have for Jesus.

Quote:Herodotus is at least a generation removed from the Persian Wars.
Look up the primary sources for Hannibal crossing the Alps. The event took place in 218 BCE.
List the sources for it, and when they were written.

All completely irrelevant to the question if whether or not Jesus actually existed. If we determine that the evidence for the Persian Wars or Hannibal is inconclusive then we reduce the probability of those events accordingly. If existing evidence can be shown to be less conclusive then previously thought then the same thing should happen. Consensus is not a final verdict.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes unfogged's post
08-10-2014, 09:13 AM (This post was last modified: 08-10-2014 09:21 AM by natachan.)
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?


Quote:Yeah cause you were there 2000 years ago.

I had to post this.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes natachan's post
08-10-2014, 09:17 AM (This post was last modified: 08-10-2014 09:25 AM by anonymous66.)
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 09:11 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You didn't even know about the "other Jesuses" yet you claimed you had done an exhaustive review. So you are a fraud. I will work on demolishing the rest of your "majority of experts" claim. So far you are a total idiot.


dude. Take a chill pill. I'm a guy on the internet talking about history.. how does that, by any stretch of the imagination make me a fraud?

I did not make any claims about "other Jesus'".. You made claims, I asked for evidence.. and then you got snippy.

So, you disagree with my claim that a majority of experts in the field agree that Jesus did exist in history? I get it... Here are those references again...


Quote: Historical Jesus refers to scholarly reconstructions of the life of Jesus,[3][4][5] based on critical methods including critical analysis of gospel texts as the primary source for his biography, along with consideration of the historical and cultural context in which he lived.[3][4][6] These reconstructions accept that Jesus existed,[7][8][9][10] although scholars differ about the beliefs and teachings of Jesus as well as the accuracy of the accounts of his life, and the only two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.[11][12][13][14]



Historical elements
Existence

Most contemporary scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, and most biblical scholars and classical historians see the theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted.[7][9][10][30][31][32] We have no indication that writers in antiquity who opposed Christianity questioned the existence of Jesus.[33][34] There is, however, widespread disagreement among scholars on the details of the life of Jesus mentioned in the gospel narratives, and on the meaning of his teachings.[14] Scholars differ on the historicity of specific episodes described in the Biblical accounts of Jesus,[14] and historians tend to look upon supernatural or miraculous claims about Jesus as questions of faith, rather than historical fact.[35]



7.In a 2011 review of the state of modern scholarship, Bart Ehrman (a secular agnostic) wrote: "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees" B. Ehrman, 2011 Forged : writing in the name of God ISBN 978-0-06-207863-6. page 285
9.Michael Grant (a classicist) states that "In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary." in Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels by Micjhael Grant 2004 ISBN 1898799881 page 200
10.Richard A. Burridge states: "There are those who argue that Jesus is a figment of the Church’s imagination, that there never was a Jesus at all. I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that any more." in Jesus Now and Then by Richard A. Burridge and Graham Gould (Apr 1, 2004) ISBN 0802809774 page 34
11.Jesus Remembered by James D. G. Dunn 2003 ISBN 0-8028-3931-2 page 339 states of baptism and crucifixion that these "two facts in the life of Jesus command almost universal assent".
12.Prophet and Teacher: An Introduction to the Historical Jesus by William R. Herzog (4 Jul 2005) ISBN 0664225284 pages 1-6
13.Crossan, John Dominic (1995). Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography. HarperOne. p. 145. ISBN 0-06-061662-8. "That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be, since both Josephus and Tacitus ... agree with the Christian accounts on at least that basic fact.
14."Jesus as a Figure in History: How Modern Historians View the Man from Galilee by Mark Allan Powell 1998 ISBN 0-664-25703-8 pages 168–173
The Jesus Quest: The Third Search for the Jew of Nazareth
30.Robert E. Van Voorst Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence Eerdmans Publishing, 2000. ISBN 0-8028-4368-9 page 16 states: "biblical scholars and classical historians regard theories of non-existence of Jesus as effectively refuted"
31.James D. G. Dunn "Paul's understanding of the death of Jesus" in Sacrifice and Redemption edited by S. W. Sykes (Dec 3, 2007) Cambridge University Press ISBN 052104460X pages 35-36 states that the theories of non-existence of Jesus are "a thoroughly dead thesis"
32.The Gospels and Jesus by Graham Stanton, 1989 ISBN 0192132415 Oxford University Press, page 145 states : "Today nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed".
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-10-2014, 09:22 AM (This post was last modified: 08-10-2014 09:27 AM by anonymous66.)
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 09:13 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Carrier IS an expert in the area in which he is making claims and the experts are only beginning to review his work. Your outright dismissal is unjustified, especially when you admit that you haven't actually read what he is claiming and reviewed the evidence that he is presenting.

Here's a list of what I've read and listened to... it's not a complete list.
I listened to Robert Price's Bible Geek for many months..
I listened to literally every youtube video I could find of Robert Price
I listened to literally every youtube video I could find of Richard Carrier
Here's another video on the subject of the Christ Myth theory that I watched https://www.youtube.comwatch?v=Ai_Sp7SjmrY (this link appears to be broken, sorry).
and another https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgmHqjblsPw
Here's a discussion of the history of the Christ Myth theory that I watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtqcRheqpc4
I've read...
Not the Impossible Faith by Carrier
The Christ Myth Theory and it's Problems by Price
Bart Ehrman and the Quest for the Historical Jesus of Nazareth by Price, Carrier and others
The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man: How Reliable are the Gospels by Price
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-10-2014, 09:31 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 09:10 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-10-2014 09:03 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  Facepalm
I'll give you the same challenge I gave Bucky.. Pick a secular school with a classics department.. call or email them... ask them what they think of the historicity of Jesus, and ask them what they think of Carrier's claims..

Call around to a few schools if you like....

Yet another non sequitur.

Why don't you call around and ask if they're Christians.
Facepalm
So, you're telling me, that you believe if a majority of Christians believes something, then that thing is false?
Facepalm
And you're also telling that you believe that a majority of the experts at secular colleges in the field of ancient history are Christians?

You need some schooling, my friend...
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: