Poll: Did Jesus Exist?
He was a real person.
Jesus is a complete myth.
He may have been real, but has become so shrouded by myth that we can't know anything about him.
Other- please explain.
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Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
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08-10-2014, 09:35 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 09:17 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  
(08-10-2014 09:11 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You didn't even know about the "other Jesuses" yet you claimed you had done an exhaustive review. So you are a fraud. I will work on demolishing the rest of your "majority of experts" claim. So far you are a total idiot.


dude. Take a chill pill. I'm a guy on the internet talking about history.. how does that, by any stretch of the imagination make me a fraud?

I did not make any claims about "other Jesus'".. You made claims, I asked for evidence.. and then you got snippy.

So, you disagree with my claim that a majority of experts in the field agree that Jesus did exist in history? I get it... Here are those references again...


Quote: Historical Jesus refers to scholarly reconstructions of the life of Jesus,[3][4][5] based on critical methods including critical analysis of gospel texts as the primary source for his biography, along with consideration of the historical and cultural context in which he lived.[3][4][6] These reconstructions accept that Jesus existed,[7][8][9][10] although scholars differ about the beliefs and teachings of Jesus as well as the accuracy of the accounts of his life, and the only two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.[11][12][13][14]



Historical elements
Existence

Most contemporary scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, and most biblical scholars and classical historians see the theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted.[7][9][10][30][31][32] We have no indication that writers in antiquity who opposed Christianity questioned the existence of Jesus.[33][34] There is, however, widespread disagreement among scholars on the details of the life of Jesus mentioned in the gospel narratives, and on the meaning of his teachings.[14] Scholars differ on the historicity of specific episodes described in the Biblical accounts of Jesus,[14] and historians tend to look upon supernatural or miraculous claims about Jesus as questions of faith, rather than historical fact.[35]



7.In a 2011 review of the state of modern scholarship, Bart Ehrman (a secular agnostic) wrote: "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees" B. Ehrman, 2011 Forged : writing in the name of God ISBN 978-0-06-207863-6. page 285
9.Michael Grant (a classicist) states that "In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary." in Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels by Micjhael Grant 2004 ISBN 1898799881 page 200
10.Richard A. Burridge states: "There are those who argue that Jesus is a figment of the Church’s imagination, that there never was a Jesus at all. I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that any more." in Jesus Now and Then by Richard A. Burridge and Graham Gould (Apr 1, 2004) ISBN 0802809774 page 34
11.Jesus Remembered by James D. G. Dunn 2003 ISBN 0-8028-3931-2 page 339 states of baptism and crucifixion that these "two facts in the life of Jesus command almost universal assent".
12.Prophet and Teacher: An Introduction to the Historical Jesus by William R. Herzog (4 Jul 2005) ISBN 0664225284 pages 1-6
13.Crossan, John Dominic (1995). Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography. HarperOne. p. 145. ISBN 0-06-061662-8. "That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be, since both Josephus and Tacitus ... agree with the Christian accounts on at least that basic fact.
14."Jesus as a Figure in History: How Modern Historians View the Man from Galilee by Mark Allan Powell 1998 ISBN 0-664-25703-8 pages 168–173
The Jesus Quest: The Third Search for the Jew of Nazareth
30.Robert E. Van Voorst Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence Eerdmans Publishing, 2000. ISBN 0-8028-4368-9 page 16 states: "biblical scholars and classical historians regard theories of non-existence of Jesus as effectively refuted"
31.James D. G. Dunn "Paul's understanding of the death of Jesus" in Sacrifice and Redemption edited by S. W. Sykes (Dec 3, 2007) Cambridge University Press ISBN 052104460X pages 35-36 states that the theories of non-existence of Jesus are "a thoroughly dead thesis"
32.The Gospels and Jesus by Graham Stanton, 1989 ISBN 0192132415 Oxford University Press, page 145 states : "Today nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed".

"I looked into the Christ Myth theory for a while... "

Obviously for a VERY short "while". Weeping

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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08-10-2014, 09:41 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 09:31 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  
(08-10-2014 09:10 AM)Chas Wrote:  Yet another non sequitur.

Why don't you call around and ask if they're Christians.
Facepalm
So, you're telling me, that you believe if a majority of Christians believes something, then that thing is false?
Facepalm

You are really bad at this. Please point out where I said that.

Quote:And you're also telling that you believe that a majority of the experts at secular colleges in the field of ancient history are Christians?

No, I suggested that if that is the case I would consider that confirmation bias might be driving that majority opinion.

Quote:You need some schooling, my friend...

In what?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-10-2014, 09:42 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 09:35 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  "I looked into the Christ Myth theory for a while... "

Obviously for a VERY short "while". Weeping

wow. great comeback. you must sway lot of people with reasoning like that...
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08-10-2014, 09:45 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 09:41 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, I suggested that if that is the case I would consider that confirmation bias might be driving that majority opinion.

confirmation bias? you mean like atheists who really want Jesus to have been a myth?

I'm an atheist, by the way... I just feel no need to take away Jesus' historicity without good cause.

And I have a lot of respect for the experts in any field of legitimate study.
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08-10-2014, 09:48 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 09:42 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  
(08-10-2014 09:35 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  "I looked into the Christ Myth theory for a while... "

Obviously for a VERY short "while". Weeping

wow. great comeback. you must sway lot of people with reasoning like that...
Rolleyes

Nice try.
Waiting for you to address even ONE of Carrier's points or ONE of the points in this thread. Obviously you know nothing about the period in question, or anything about the subject. All you can do is assert your "experts" claim.
We shall see what they are "expert" in. You dismissed Carrier as a Classicist, yet you told me to email one. Hmmm. This should be very easy. I have class today. I'll look up your "experts" when I get home.

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08-10-2014, 09:48 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 09:45 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  
(08-10-2014 09:41 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, I suggested that if that is the case I would consider that confirmation bias might be driving that majority opinion.

confirmation bias? you mean like atheists who really want Jesus to have been a myth?

Since I have not made a claim, what are you talking about?

Quote:I'm an atheist, by the way... I just feel no need to take away Jesus' historicity without good cause.

And I have a lot of respect for the experts in any field of legitimate study.

I have respect for evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-10-2014, 09:51 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 09:48 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(08-10-2014 09:42 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  wow. great comeback. you must sway lot of people with reasoning like that...
Rolleyes

Nice try.
Waiting for you to address even ONE of Carrier's points or ONE of the points in this thread. Obviously you know nothing about the period in question, or anything about the subject. All you can do is assert your "experts" claim.
We shall see what they are "expert" in. You dismissed Carrier as a Classicist, yet you told me to email one. Hmmm. This should be very easy. I have class today. I'll look up your "experts" when I get home.

no I did not dismiss Carrier as a classicist.. Pay attention now. I'm saying that he disagrees with a majority of the experts in his own field (and I compared him to Stephen Meyer). I'm also saying that if he wants to change the way the experts in the field of ancient history see Jesus (as being historical), then he will need to provide convincing evidence. So, far, he has not been able to sway the majority of his fellow classicists. (actually I doubt he is even trying to sway them... He's rather trying to sway the general public.. the ones ignorant in how "history is done".- you know.. like the Intelligent Design community did with their views on evolution.)
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08-10-2014, 09:54 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 09:45 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  I'm an atheist, by the way... I just feel no need to take away Jesus' historicity without good cause.

And I have a lot of respect for the experts in any field of legitimate study.

I suggest you read Carrier's latest book. The earlier writings and videos you mentioned were not peer-reviewed and, while they covered a lot of the same ground, were much less detailed. I have read/viewed much of the same material, and others, and still held to the idea that historicity was the simplest option.

I am not saying that he is right, just that I think he presents a strong case to indeed "take away Jesus' historicity". I still need to re-read it and review many of the claims and listen to other responses.

I just don't give the current consensus the reverence that you appear to have for it.

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08-10-2014, 09:57 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
Have any of you thought of applying the same reasoning you use to reject Jesus as being historical to other figures in history?

why not start threads in order to convince others that Socrates never existed? He never even wrote anything down...
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08-10-2014, 09:59 AM (This post was last modified: 08-10-2014 10:04 AM by anonymous66.)
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 09:54 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(08-10-2014 09:45 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  I'm an atheist, by the way... I just feel no need to take away Jesus' historicity without good cause.

And I have a lot of respect for the experts in any field of legitimate study.

I suggest you read Carrier's latest book. The earlier writings and videos you mentioned were not peer-reviewed and, while they covered a lot of the same ground, were much less detailed. I have read/viewed much of the same material, and others, and still held to the idea that historicity was the simplest option.

I am not saying that he is right, just that I think he presents a strong case to indeed "take away Jesus' historicity". I still need to re-read it and review many of the claims and listen to other responses.

I just don't give the current consensus the reverence that you appear to have for it.

sure.. I may read Carrier's book. We'll see. Either that or I'll keep immunizing my son until the current consensus of experts tells me otherwise... I know there are crazies out there who say I shouldn't...
Wait... what were we talking about?
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