Poll: Did Jesus Exist?
He was a real person.
Jesus is a complete myth.
He may have been real, but has become so shrouded by myth that we can't know anything about him.
Other- please explain.
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Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
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08-10-2014, 01:26 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 01:10 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(08-10-2014 12:54 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  It'll be like the best $8 ever spent huh?

If it is then you have led far too sheltered a life!
Big Grin

It's a good book, as is "Jesus, Interrupted", also by Erhman.

Those are probably approved by the OP since Ehrman is a historicist and agrees with the herd consensus so his arguments are acceptable.
Drinking Beverage

What or who is OP?
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08-10-2014, 01:33 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 01:26 PM)Rik Wrote:  
(08-10-2014 01:10 PM)unfogged Wrote:  If it is then you have led far too sheltered a life!
Big Grin

It's a good book, as is "Jesus, Interrupted", also by Erhman.

Those are probably approved by the OP since Ehrman is a historicist and agrees with the herd consensus so his arguments are acceptable.
Drinking Beverage

What or who is OP?


OP refers to original post. As in the opening post of a thread.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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08-10-2014, 01:47 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 01:33 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(08-10-2014 01:26 PM)Rik Wrote:  What or who is OP?


OP refers to original post. As in the opening post of a thread.

Ah, thnx. Smile
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08-10-2014, 03:13 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 08:50 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  
(08-10-2014 08:45 AM)Chas Wrote:  Are you really comparing hard science to textual criticism? Seriously?

Are you really rejecting the entire field of study that is history? seriously? If so, why pay any attention to Carrier? You do understand that he is a trained historian, right?

Well that was as evasive as fuck.Drinking Beverage

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08-10-2014, 03:24 PM (This post was last modified: 08-10-2014 03:31 PM by WhiskeyDebates.)
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 10:50 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  It's turned me off. I probably won't get involved with any groups with "atheist" in the title in the future... It's just not worth it.

Good. Make this forum one of them.

(08-10-2014 11:08 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  
(08-10-2014 11:04 AM)Chas Wrote:  I don't understand why the experts in the field of ancient history should be taken seriously.

^ Is that what you're trying to say? Maybe you should ask Richard Carrier. He's the one with the degree.

Oh you motherless motherfucker you just crossed a line.

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08-10-2014, 03:49 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 04:00 AM)hell-lover Wrote:  My point was if you weren't there how do you know the bible is wrong? You are having faith the bible is wrong - I am having faith God's word is right. Smile

It takes faith to believe a mish-moshed, anachronistic, unscientific, contradictory, unsubstantiated book of fables and parables as being the morally binding manifesto of an invisible man in the sky.

Refuting it as God's word takes only a normal dose of skepticism.

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08-10-2014, 04:17 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 10:50 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  @ClydeLee

^meh.. It deserves further study....if I get a chance...

But, no.. I'm not being disingenuous. the atheists I've met in organizations with "atheist" in the title? in general, yes, they have a hard time accepting that an atheist could accept that Jesus is a historical figure...

It's turned me off. I probably won't get involved with any groups with "atheist" in the title in the future... It's just not worth it.

And yes, they are probably decent people... and not every atheist believes that Jesus was a myth...

Wow.
What a shock. Your agenda met with same viewpoints you ran into 3 yrs ago on AF....
only this time you pretend you're an atheist.

Lmao

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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08-10-2014, 05:50 PM (This post was last modified: 09-10-2014 06:10 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 09:06 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  if you want to understand what secular historians say about Jesus.... check this out... The instructor, Dale Martin, is openly gay, and teaches at Yale.

Here's an open Yale course RLST 152: Introduction to the New Testament History and Literature.

Here are the videos of his lectures.


Professor

Dale B. Martin, Woolsey Professor of Religious Studies
Description

This course provides a historical study of the origins of Christianity by analyzing the literature of the earliest Christian movements in historical context, concentrating on the New Testament. Although theological themes will occupy much of our attention, the course does not attempt a theological appropriation of the New Testament as scripture. Rather, the importance of the New Testament and other early Christian documents as ancient literature and as sources for historical study will be emphasized. A central organizing theme of the course will focus on the differences within early Christianity (-ies).

I've done this course. He never really addresses the issue of historicity, as I recall, one way or the other.
Edit : Good course though. I liked it, and learned a lot. The sections on Paul were excellent.

All the other references provided are believers, and are "professionally obligated" (i.e. work for religious institutions) to tow the line. They cannot be objective. If they had doubts and expressed them, they would most likely get fired. None (except Grant) are actually professional secular historians or classicists. Their degrees all come from seminaries and divinity schools. They are mostly professors of NT, and believers, who, I would guess, never once took seriously the question of historicity. Except for
Grant, who is a fan-boi of Jebus, and Ehrman who came from a very conservative Evangelical background. Ehrman broke off answering Carrier's pointed questions when it got too hot for him. I like Ehrman a lot, but in this debate, I don't, as he did not answer what was asked of him.

1. Michael Grant : He actually goes so far believing the gospels as to construct a (fake) "personality profile" of Jebus. That's hardly history. He's a fan-boi. He uses the old "Criteria of Embarrasment" ... ie he says they would not have written what they did if they were making it up. Not evidence of anything. Not historical. His opinion. He also writes, ", "The most potent figure, not only in the history of religion, but in world history as a whole, is Jesus Christ: the maker of one of the few revolutions which have lasted. Millions of men and women for century after century have found his life and teaching overwhelmingly significant and moving. And there is ample reason, as this book will endeavor to show, in this later twentieth century why this should still be so."

"After his career, then, had ended in total failure, Jesus, when his life was over, converted that failure into immeasurable victory. This tremendous change was ascribed, in the last chapter, to certain unforeseeable curcumstances which had arisen during the years and generations following his death. Yet that was by no means the whole reason for Jesus' gigantically widespread posthumous acclamation. This enormous reversal was due also to altogether exceptional features of his own character."

Heh heh. Facepalm
History ?
No.

Richard A. Burridge : "Reverend Professor Richard Alan Burridge (born 11 June 1955) is Dean of King's College London, where he is also Professor of Biblical Interpretation (Biblical Exegesis). His doctoral thesis on the genre of the gospels was published in 1992 as What are the Gospels? A Comparison with Graeco-Roman Biography and is highly influential in that it played a key part both in establishing that the Gospels were read as biographies in the first centuries after Christ and that they belonged to a recognized literary genre of biographies rather than being unprecedented writings which reflected the faith and life of the post-Easter church."

So what ? How believers read them is irrelevant. AND THAT is not a generally accepted view, AND the gospels. no matter how they "were read" contain impossible inconsistencies and errors. Conclusion : Biased believer. Is not an "historian" by any stretch.

James D. G. Dunn : Preacher, minister.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Dunn_...ologian%29
Biased. Not an"historian".

William R. Herzog : William R. Herzog II is dean of the faculty and professor of New Testament at Andover Newton Theological School. Guess we can stop right there.

Crossan, John Dominic "That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be, since both Josephus and Tacitus ... agree with the Christian accounts on at least that basic fact." Tacitus and Josephus actually don't say that. Ex-priest. He is recognized for his scholarship. Am surprised he got that so wrong. It is almost universally accepted that the Josephus "interpolation" in Chapter 18 is a forgery.

Mark Allan Powell : "Giving to God: The Bible's Good News about Living a Generous Life" Are you shitting me ?

Robert E. Van Voorst : "is an American theologian and educator."
Not an historian. Biased. "He is a Professor of New Testament Studies at Western Theological Seminary, in Holland, Michigan"

Graham Stanton, Professor of Divinity, believer, member of the Church of England. Not an historian, nor a Classicist.

None of these people are secular anything.
Oh well. Try try again.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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08-10-2014, 06:13 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 05:50 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Oh well. Try try agan.

Well, Mr. Non-critical thinker left in a snit at 1:10PM - so sad.

You can bet someone will use this to rant about "the mob" chasing away a "valuable member". Dodgy

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-10-2014, 07:30 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(08-10-2014 06:13 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-10-2014 05:50 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Oh well. Try try agan.

Well, Mr. Non-critical thinker left in a snit at 1:10PM - so sad.

You can bet someone will use this to rant about "the mob" chasing away a "valuable member". Dodgy

Oh, Oh!!!! Can I guess who?

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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