Poll: Did Jesus Exist?
He was a real person.
Jesus is a complete myth.
He may have been real, but has become so shrouded by myth that we can't know anything about him.
Other- please explain.
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Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
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22-02-2014, 06:09 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(22-02-2014 05:59 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  ...
Some historians believe that Hercules was based on a real person. ....

Yeah, that's basically my point too. As much as we can say we know of an historical Hercules, is as much as we can really say we know about a historical Jesus. So much mythos has engulfed the character, that it's not even possible to know if there was even a historical person that the character is templated onto.

And as much as we know that the Hercules of myth, is not anything remotely like the Hercules of history, which even if there was a historical one, the version we know is so off that it in all reality wouldn't even be the same person.

So even if there was a historical person that Jesus was crafted onto, there would be in no way anything of the historical "Jesus" that would be anything like the Jesus of the bible, or in Christians' minds. It would just be some dude. If a Christian could go back in time in meet him, they would be just as disappointed as anyone would be going back in time to meet the historical person that Hercules was crafted onto, when you just meet some dude named Hercules, who is just some random dude.

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22-02-2014, 06:24 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(22-02-2014 06:09 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  
(22-02-2014 05:59 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  ...
Some historians believe that Hercules was based on a real person. ....

Yeah, that's basically my point too. As much as we can say we know of an historical Hercules, is as much as we can really say we know about a historical Jesus. So much mythos has engulfed the character, that it's not even possible to know if there was even a historical person that the character is templated onto.

And as much as we know that the Hercules of myth, is not anything remotely like the Hercules of history, which even if there was a historical one, the version we know is so off that it in all reality wouldn't even be the same person.

So even if there was a historical person that Jesus was crafted onto, there would be in no way anything of the historical "Jesus" that would be anything like the Jesus of the bible, or in Christians' minds. It would just be some dude. If a Christian could go back in time in meet him, they would be just as disappointed as anyone would be going back in time to meet the historical person that Hercules was crafted onto, when you just meet some dude named Hercules, who is just some random dude.

Part of the point I was trying to make.

Mythology, when and if based upon historical people, overshadows the traits of the individual it is based around.

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22-02-2014, 07:08 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
I think there might have once been a guy named Jesus…..and then it ended up like the "Dread Pirate Roberts"

Big Grin


"Life is a daring adventure or it is nothing"--Helen Keller
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22-02-2014, 07:17 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(22-02-2014 05:12 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(22-02-2014 04:17 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  The only thing that makes me lean slightly more toward there at least being a human being, or multiple people for whom the stories are attributed to, is realizing that if you were going to completely fabricate the story of Jesus, it’s not very convincing to acquire new recruits by having him killed off, and having failed his mission.

That’s the one thing that really makes me think that there must have at least been a person for whom the mythos of Jesus was later ascribed to. It seems more like something that myths would have to be made up about to explain away this glaring problem, than to make up whole cloth using such a flawed story.

(22-02-2014 04:41 PM)f stop Wrote:  It's difficult to maintain that Muhammad never lived. He raised an army and took over Arabia, a fact well documented in the secular record.

Guru Nanak, founder of the Sikh religion, was also very likely a real person. He lived about 500 years ago and I would be surprised if he were missing from the secular records.

Except dying and rising gods where quite the fad. Lots of them were said to have died, and rose. It's fits perfectly with the common mythos of the day.

Muhammad did no such thing. His followers did, and there are many good reasons to think they invented Islam to unify, and politically mold the new empire.

Look at Robert Spencer's videos and books.

I also read that girls often proclaimed themselves to be pregnant with the messiah. It was quite the fad. I wish I could remember where I read it though.

By the way, your Kirk quote at the bottom is from the play Peter Pan. Did ga' know that?

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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23-02-2014, 01:10 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(22-02-2014 04:17 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  The only thing that makes me lean slightly more toward there at least being a human being, or multiple people for whom the stories are attributed to, is realizing that if you were going to completely fabricate the story of Jesus, it’s not very convincing to acquire new recruits by having him killed off, and having failed his mission.

What if you were trying to sell the story to a religion rooted in sacrifices, in such a way that sacrifice (aka temple worship) would no longer be necessary?

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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23-02-2014, 01:18 AM (This post was last modified: 23-02-2014 01:25 AM by Raptor Jesus.)
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(23-02-2014 01:10 AM)toadaly Wrote:  What if you were trying to sell the story to a religion rooted in sacrifices, in such a way that sacrifice (aka temple worship) would no longer be necessary?

I mostly responded to that in post #19.

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23-02-2014, 01:18 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
I don't know at what point you transition from historical to mythical, as all myths are constructed from pre-existing ideas. Harry Potter, no doubt, has characteristics from real people in Rowling's life, but few would take the idea of a 'historical Harry Potter' seriously. He's a constructed character, and that's what makes him fictional. Mythical characters are also constructed, but not with intent. They are constructed haphazardly over time by numerous authors.

You can never be sure of course, but a purely mythical/fictional Jesus has more explanatory power, IMHO, as virtually every aspect of his character can be drawn from either the Old Testament, or Jewish ideas prevalent at the time. Jesus seems to me to be a constructed character, not a real person around whom legends grew.

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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23-02-2014, 01:19 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
There is very little evidence to suggest that Jesus actually lived.
No eyewitness accounts, no writtings about him during his life time.
Stories popped up 30+ years after he died.
Stories with details about speeches/sermons that he gave.

Personally, I can't remember much of what anyone said to me 30 years ago.

Also, the miracles would have been very hard to pull off had he been a real person.
It would have been much easier to create a fictional character whom died 30 years ago and to have a charismatic and "believable" leader to build a cult following and to convince people to believe their crazy stories of a magic man being son of god.
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23-02-2014, 07:35 AM (This post was last modified: 23-02-2014 08:04 AM by jersonf.)
Re: RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(22-02-2014 04:18 PM)Alexandro Wrote:  
(22-02-2014 04:02 PM)f stop Wrote:  What about L. Ron Hubbard?

I thought of him too, but not everyone agrees that scientology is a religion. Looks more like a scam to me. Never heard of a homeless person joining it.
Did Bobby Henderson really created a religion (FSM)?
What about the Jedi Church.
Even as an atheist I can tell the difference between faith and mockery.

This is why I never included L. Ron Hubbard in my post, Zoroaster was the only person alive to actually create a religion, the rest of them (religions) are just a group of stories and myths from previous times, or loosely based on a real persons fables.

Or created many years after an alleged person has died, if you look closely at the time of an alleged person, the creation of the religion, and their own scriptures, they usually don't even match, sometimes by a good few hundred years, people just assume that they match.

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23-02-2014, 07:51 AM
Re: RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(22-02-2014 04:41 PM)f stop Wrote:  
(22-02-2014 01:50 PM)jersonf Wrote:  Did Jesus exist? Or was he a myth? Myth, its an amalgamation of previous myths.

Zoroaster pictured above, I believe was the only person who lived and created a religion whilst he was alive.
It's difficult to maintain that Muhammad never lived. He raised an army and took over Arabia, a fact well documented in the secular record.

Guru Nanak, founder of the Sikh religion, was also very likely a real person. He lived about 500 years ago and I would be surprised if he were missing from the secular records.

I'm not saying Mohammed or Guru Nanak never existed, however an amalgamation of previous myths still applies, in Islam you have a retelling of myths from let's say the old and new testament, retelling a myth is still a myth. period.

With Guru Nanak you have the three day resurrection - missing enlightenment story , which you could say is like a parable , probably based off the winter solstice with the sun of god dying for three days, this is a very very old story.

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