Poll: Did Jesus Exist?
He was a real person.
Jesus is a complete myth.
He may have been real, but has become so shrouded by myth that we can't know anything about him.
Other- please explain.
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Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
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24-02-2014, 08:58 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
I've been reading about Richard Carrier's theory. Basically, he suggests that Jesus was first known as a heavenly being, and then after the fact, he was placed in history. Carrier points out that Paul's writings (the authentic ones) were written before the gospels, and suggest that Paul knew nothing about a historical man, but rather received visions from Jesus himself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwUZOZN-9dc

http://www.richardcarrier.info/Historicity_of_Jesus.pdf
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24-02-2014, 10:15 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(24-02-2014 08:58 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  I've been reading about Richard Carrier's theory. Basically, he suggests that Jesus was first known as a heavenly being, and then after the fact, he was placed in history. Carrier points out that Paul's writings (the authentic ones) were written before the gospels, and suggest that Paul knew nothing about a historical man, but rather received visions from Jesus himself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwUZOZN-9dc

http://www.richardcarrier.info/Historicity_of_Jesus.pdf

Nailed: 10 Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All is a decent one for this subject.

After reading it I felt it is a good book to send you on the right track for more detailed information, such as the fact that it referenced Richard Carrier's books quite often, but for me it only raised reason to doubt that a historical person, that the Jesus myth was applied to, ever existed. But I already had those doubts.

If you have no exposure at all to the arguments, then this could be a great book for you.

If you are like me, it's more of a combination of the arguments placed in one easy to access book. But despite the title, I didn't find it to show that a historical person the Jesus myth was based on never existed. But rather that we can't trust any of the documentation or claims of Jesus as being real. I personally never did trust any of those things.

...
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24-02-2014, 10:35 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
I do not think the Jesus of the bible existed. I do think there is a reasonable possibility a counter-cultural rabbi who got crossways with the Jewish establishment bad enough to get himself exicuted exsisted. Somehow or another in less than 30 years after this guys death there was noticable numbers of followers. This is what leads me to believe that a person actually existed. Not that I have any proof or anything, that is just how I inturpret my understanding of christian history.
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24-02-2014, 10:53 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
I voted for complete myth. There may have been some guy named Jesus whose name was borrowed for the sake of the stories, but I haven't seen evidence that anyone remotely resembling the Jesus people worship ever existed.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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24-02-2014, 11:03 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
I recall years ago speaking to a good friend who had gone through the seminary. He has a degree in religion or whatever...Anyway he mentioned that was far more corroborating evidence to the life (or existence) of John the baptist than there ever was about jesus.

I always found that very telling.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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24-02-2014, 11:12 AM (This post was last modified: 24-02-2014 11:15 AM by anonymous66.)
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
I just found the passage in Josephus (chapter 5) that mentions John the Baptist.
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24-02-2014, 11:16 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(24-02-2014 10:53 AM)Impulse Wrote:  I voted for complete myth. There may have been some guy named Jesus whose name was borrowed for the sake of the stories, but I haven't seen evidence that anyone remotely resembling the Jesus people worship ever existed.

That's because all the so-called evidence is written in the gospels. If you take those out, there's precious little else to go on.

The only contemporary might be Josephus. He allegedly mentioned him or made reference to him but two of the three references have been dismissed by most scholars. One being for certain complete forgery (the context doesn't even make sense) another vague reference might be a mistranslation...Regardless of all that...Had jesus been *that* important he would have been mentioned more...

Jesus was a known heretic but one must remember there were MANY people claiming to be the messiah as well. From what I understand that was kinda common for that time. Just like to today when a minister claims to have a telephone connection to god.

People always go on and on about the stupid references that prove jesus was the messiah but they completely ignore the big stuff the messiah was supposed to do -- that jebus didn't even come close to fulfilling.

It's pretty clear that Saul of Tarsus knew NOTHING about jesus' past. It seems even his own mother Mary forgot frequently that she gave birth to the son of god....Which could be why they keep mentions of her limited at best.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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24-02-2014, 12:34 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(24-02-2014 10:35 AM)wazzel Wrote:  Somehow or another in less than 30 years after this guys death there was noticable numbers of followers.

...I don't see how this follows. How would the existence of a historical Jesus make Christianity spread faster - considering that few people 30 years later could possibly have ever met him? Further, it's only if you start by assuming there was a historical Jesus, that you end up concluding Christianity began around 30CE.

The origin of the movement could be much older than that. The New Testament itself states Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, suggesting the possibility of the Baptist cult as the source of Christianity. another group, the Essenes, sound almost exactly like early Christians, but are recorded in 1st century sources to be very ancient.

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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24-02-2014, 12:46 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(24-02-2014 12:34 PM)toadaly Wrote:  
(24-02-2014 10:35 AM)wazzel Wrote:  Somehow or another in less than 30 years after this guys death there was noticable numbers of followers.

...I don't see how this follows. How would the existence of a historical Jesus make Christianity spread faster - considering that few people 30 years later could possibly have ever met him? Further, it's only if you start by assuming there was a historical Jesus, that you end up concluding Christianity began around 30CE.

The origin of the movement could be much older than that. The New Testament itself states Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, suggesting the possibility of the Baptist cult as the source of Christianity. another group, the Essenes, sound almost exactly like early Christians, but are recorded in 1st century sources to be very ancient.

IIRC around 60CE is when christians first start showing up in roman text which would be about 30 years after the crucifiction story is supposed to have taken place. 30 years of so seems like a reasonable length of time for a movement to grow to be noticable. There is no good reliable source to proof there was a historical Jesus. The items I am using are circumstantial and my interpretation.
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24-02-2014, 01:01 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(24-02-2014 12:46 PM)wazzel Wrote:  IIRC around 60CE is when christians first start showing up in roman text which would be about 30 years after the crucifiction story is supposed to have taken place. 30 years of so seems like a reasonable length of time for a movement to grow to be noticable. There is no good reliable source to proof there was a historical Jesus. The items I am using are circumstantial and my interpretation.

30 years is not unreasonable, but neither is 5, or 300. I just don't see how Christianity being big enough to be noticed in 64 CE, in any way suggests it started around 30 CE.

30 CE is not *inconsistent*, but really, neither is anything else.

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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