Poll: Did Jesus Exist?
He was a real person.
Jesus is a complete myth.
He may have been real, but has become so shrouded by myth that we can't know anything about him.
Other- please explain.
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Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
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24-02-2014, 01:30 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(24-02-2014 01:01 PM)toadaly Wrote:  
(24-02-2014 12:46 PM)wazzel Wrote:  IIRC around 60CE is when christians first start showing up in roman text which would be about 30 years after the crucifiction story is supposed to have taken place. 30 years of so seems like a reasonable length of time for a movement to grow to be noticable. There is no good reliable source to proof there was a historical Jesus. The items I am using are circumstantial and my interpretation.

30 years is not unreasonable, but neither is 5, or 300. I just don't see how Christianity being big enough to be noticed in 64 CE, in any way suggests it started around 30 CE.

30 CE is not *inconsistent*, but really, neither is anything else.

It does not discount it either. Like I said before I am not stating that I am 100% correct, I just think it is highly possible the historical Jesus existed.
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24-02-2014, 01:49 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(22-02-2014 04:41 PM)f stop Wrote:  
(22-02-2014 01:50 PM)jersonf Wrote:  Did Jesus exist? Or was he a myth? Myth, its an amalgamation of previous myths.

Zoroaster pictured above, I believe was the only person who lived and created a religion whilst he was alive.
It's difficult to maintain that Muhammad never lived. He raised an army and took over Arabia, a fact well documented in the secular record.

Read Robert Spencer's "Did Muhammad Exist."


Quote:Something I've just thought of... Why is the Catholic Church so obsessed with relics? To the point of hoarding them.

Check out Candida Moss' "The Myth of Persecution." It will explain much.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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24-02-2014, 02:15 PM
Re: RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(24-02-2014 01:49 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  Read Robert Spencer's "Did Muhammad Exist."

Thanks I will check this out and cross reference it, with my others books.

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06-06-2014, 12:16 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
For those of you that like to listen to long debates...

I just came across this debate between Richard Carrier and Zeba Crook on the historicity of Jesus. Zeba Crook is professor of religious studies at Carleton University.

It's an interesting debate in that it's the first I've seen on the Jesus Myth theory where both sides are looking at the issue from a purely secular point of view.
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06-06-2014, 05:45 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
I may have to watch that when I have time. I watched one lecture by Carrier. It was pretty good.
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07-06-2014, 12:01 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(22-02-2014 01:50 PM)jersonf Wrote:  Did Jesus exist? Or was he a myth? Myth, its an amalgamation of previous myths.

Zoroaster pictured above, I believe was the only person who lived and created a religion whilst he was alive.

What about Paul, the creator of Christianity?
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07-06-2014, 12:06 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(22-02-2014 04:18 PM)Alexandro Wrote:  
(22-02-2014 04:02 PM)f stop Wrote:  What about L. Ron Hubbard?

I thought of him too, but not everyone agrees that scientology is a religion. Looks more like a scam to me. Never heard of a homeless person joining it.
Did Bobby Henderson really created a religion (FSM)?
What about the Jedi Church.
Even as an atheist I can tell the difference between faith and mockery.

"but not everyone agrees that scientology is a religion. Looks more like a scam to me."

I challenge you to find a point of difference between a "scam" and "religion"
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07-06-2014, 12:21 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(24-02-2014 11:03 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I recall years ago speaking to a good friend who had gone through the seminary. He has a degree in religion or whatever...Anyway he mentioned that was far more corroborating evidence to the life (or existence) of John the baptist than there ever was about jesus.

I always found that very telling.

This is true.
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07-06-2014, 12:26 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(24-02-2014 11:12 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  I just found the passage in Josephus (chapter 5) that mentions John the Baptist.

Yes! Allow me to expand on this....

Brothers in Arms…John and Yeshua

According to James Tabor, in The Jesus Dynasty, John the Baptist started a messianic movement, well before Yeshua arrived on the scene. John was probably a charismatic Essenian teacher, a man who created excitement. The people considered him a prophet; someone qualified to tell them what God expected. He had the credentials to be a legitimate priest, as he was said to be a descendant of Aaron (see Luke 1;5.) He obviously refused to respect the temple hierarchy in Jerusalem, as he never associated with them. Instead, he went into the wilderness to proclaim to the people that the coming of the messiah was close at hand, which meant only one thing to poor Jews: a war was on the horizon. John baptized believers and told his brethren to repent and get ready for the beginning of a new world order in which they wouldn’t be poor and oppressed. His message may have been well received, as the bible boasts he attracted big audiences. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpWNL1vyQz0).

The site on the River Jordan where John baptized people is only three miles from Qumran, the home of a large Essenian community that hid the Dead Sea Scrolls a few decades later. No one knows if he associated with them, but it’s probable.
The Gospels claim that John and Jesus held each other in high regard, and that they were cousins. John, in his own time, was a better-known figure than Yeshua, as he’d already preached for a number of years, and had a contingent of followers before Yeshua cropped up. The Gospel writers couldn’t imply that Yeshua played a subordinate role, so each strove to make Jesus seem more senior than John. Yet they couldn’t conceal the fact that John baptized the novitiate. In reality John was the more established and authoritative instructor, and Yeshua was his protégé.

Yeshua’s stature grew as time went by. The two of them might have planned that once they had established political power in Palestine, John, the heir of Aaron, was to be the new high priest and Yeshua, the descendent of David, the new king of Israel.

I think they parted ways to double the capacity of their campaign, which involved telling carefully selected, disgruntled groups of Jews about their plan to wage a war. I suspect the two young men used religion to excite and galvanize large numbers of poor patriotic Jews. Baptizing people with water was a symbolic re-enactment of the ancient Jews’ (fictitious) crossing of the Red Sea to freedom. The two friends were offering Jews a new freedom, a freedom from Rome.

James Tabor states that by the end of 27 CE, the messianic movement started by John recognized two types of Jews in Palestine, those who’d responded by being baptized, and those who hadn’t. This was no small-scale backyard scheme; it was a serious shift in the peasant population towards militancy.

Herod Antipas, the Romans’ puppet king, must have been watching John like a hawk. Any Galilean prophet preaching to the public was presumed to be a zealot. He had John arrested and killed. This is how Josephus described John’s murder:
“…what he did against John, that was called the Baptist; for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness toward one another, and piety toward God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away of some sins, but for the purification of the body: supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness. Now, when many others came in crowds about him, for they were greatly moved by hearing his words, Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion, (for they seemed ready to do anything he should advise,) thought it best, by putting him to death, to prevent any mischief he might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties, by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it should be too late. Accordingly, he was sent a prisoner, out of Herod’s suspicious temper, to Macherus, the castle I before mentioned, and was there put to death.” (Antiquities 18.5.2 116-119.) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus).

Herod was wary of a coup commanded by John, so had him killed. The Gospel authors deliberately didn’t detail the real reason for John’s death, because it didn’t fit with their invented image of John and Jesus as pacifist evangelists. Josephus also points out that John had criticized Herod for marrying his brother’s wife, which wouldn’t have endeared him to Herod.
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07-06-2014, 12:28 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(24-02-2014 11:16 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(24-02-2014 10:53 AM)Impulse Wrote:  I voted for complete myth. There may have been some guy named Jesus whose name was borrowed for the sake of the stories, but I haven't seen evidence that anyone remotely resembling the Jesus people worship ever existed.

That's because all the so-called evidence is written in the gospels. If you take those out, there's precious little else to go on.

The only contemporary might be Josephus. He allegedly mentioned him or made reference to him but two of the three references have been dismissed by most scholars. One being for certain complete forgery (the context doesn't even make sense) another vague reference might be a mistranslation...Regardless of all that...Had jesus been *that* important he would have been mentioned more...

Jesus was a known heretic but one must remember there were MANY people claiming to be the messiah as well. From what I understand that was kinda common for that time. Just like to today when a minister claims to have a telephone connection to god.

People always go on and on about the stupid references that prove jesus was the messiah but they completely ignore the big stuff the messiah was supposed to do -- that jebus didn't even come close to fulfilling.

It's pretty clear that Saul of Tarsus knew NOTHING about jesus' past. It seems even his own mother Mary forgot frequently that she gave birth to the son of god....Which could be why they keep mentions of her limited at best.

Beautiful!
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