Poll: Did Jesus Exist?
He was a real person.
Jesus is a complete myth.
He may have been real, but has become so shrouded by myth that we can't know anything about him.
Other- please explain.
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Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
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12-06-2014, 07:03 AM (This post was last modified: 12-06-2014 10:15 AM by anonymous66.)
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(12-06-2014 06:23 AM)Dee Wrote:  I am atheist. To believe that Jesus existed would claim all the things that makes his that Jesus (Christ) happened: messiah, miracle worker, son of God, died and rose from the dead, walked on water, and so on.

Myth, I am atheist.

How would you explain the fact that most secular historians except that Jesus probably did live? They would even say that there is more evidence of his existence than many other accepted well-known historical figures.

The more I learn about ancient history, the more I realize how messy it is. There is much contradictory information and myth around many historical figures. It can be a challenge to separate the true from the false, when considering any ancient historical figure.

I'm also an atheist, by the way.
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12-06-2014, 07:52 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(11-06-2014 11:39 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(10-06-2014 11:29 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Mark, this makes logical sense, but one thing that bothers me is, unless Yeshua was doing something typical of the mythical Jesus - claiming to be the messiah, for example - why would anyone base a fictional Jesus on him at all? It seems that there must have been some basis for choosing him specifically; otherwise, why not choose someone else who at least was claiming to be the messiah? Do you have any thoughts or insight into what that basis might have been?

I don't claim to be very learned on this topic, but I'm pretty sure Jesus rarely claimed to be the Messiah. I think quotes where he did only come from John. Which is the extra wild magical gospel where Jesus is aggressive wiping guys out of the temple and saying to take up the sword.
I don't have a lot of knowledge in this area myself, but I do believe you are right that Jesus said little about being the Messiah (or even being God for that matter). But what I was getting at is, if Jesus was someone based on an actual person, there must have been some logical reason (or at least one would think so) for choosing the specific person. There were many people claiming to be the Messiah back then so I'm wondering why Yeshua would have been the one chosen (assuming it's correct that he was the one).

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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13-06-2014, 08:20 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(12-06-2014 07:03 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  How would you explain the fact that most secular historians except that Jesus probably did live? They would even say that there is more evidence of his existence than many other accepted well-known historical figures.

I'm curious what they mean by "more evidence". I thought the vast majority of contemporary "evidence" of Jesus was found in the Bible. You know, that book that said he could walk on water and resurrect the dead?

Fuck, I've seen books that claim Superman can fly and shoot lasers out of his eyes, and those books were written much closer to when he'd be alive. Hell, I've seen evidence with my own eyes on film that he could fly so fast around the planet that he could turn it into a fucking time machine!

I'd like to know what they're using to base "more" evidence on. My understanding is there's very little secular contemporary evidence he existed, some of which are forgeries or vague to the point of being useless ("James brother of Jesus"? Which Jesus?). So, if they're basing it on the Bible and non-canonical gospels, I'll submit to them Superman.
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13-06-2014, 10:46 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(07-06-2014 12:01 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(22-02-2014 01:50 PM)jersonf Wrote:  Did Jesus exist? Or was he a myth? Myth, its an amalgamation of previous myths.

Zoroaster pictured above, I believe was the only person who lived and created a religion whilst he was alive.

What about Paul, the creator of Christianity?

What about Marcion? The creator of "paul?"

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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13-06-2014, 10:50 AM (This post was last modified: 13-06-2014 11:28 AM by anonymous66.)
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(13-06-2014 08:20 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(12-06-2014 07:03 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  How would you explain the fact that most secular historians except that Jesus probably did live? They would even say that there is more evidence of his existence than many other accepted well-known historical figures.

I'm curious what they mean by "more evidence". I thought the vast majority of contemporary "evidence" of Jesus was found in the Bible. You know, that book that said he could walk on water and resurrect the dead?

Fuck, I've seen books that claim Superman can fly and shoot lasers out of his eyes, and those books were written much closer to when he'd be alive. Hell, I've seen evidence with my own eyes on film that he could fly so fast around the planet that he could turn it into a fucking time machine!

I'd like to know what they're using to base "more" evidence on. My understanding is there's very little secular contemporary evidence he existed, some of which are forgeries or vague to the point of being useless ("James brother of Jesus"? Which Jesus?). So, if they're basing it on the Bible and non-canonical gospels, I'll submit to them Superman.

I've been researching the Christ Myth theory for several months. I like Richard Carrier and Robert Price, I'm even a friend of Price's on facebook. I've listened to every youtube I could find of both Price and Carrier. I'm also a regular "Bible Geek" listener.

I've read...
Not the Impossible Faith by Carrier

The Christ Myth Theory and it's Problems by Price

Bart Ehrman and the Quest for the Historical Jesus of Nazareth by Price, Carrier and others

The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man: How Reliable are the Gospels by Price

But, in an attempt to be objective... I've also listened to other parties discuss the Christ Myth theory...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtqcRheqpc4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgmHqjblsPw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai_Sp7SjmrY

I've also been discussing the Christ Myth theory on another secular forum (devoted to personality types), and met another atheist who is also a historian. He's the one who encouraged me to try and use the same critical eye when trying to determine the historicity of other historical figures, in particular, Epicurus.

His point is that if we used the same criteria for other historical figures, then we'd have to reject many of them. And just because we accept that historical figures have had myths grow up around them, it doesn't mean we have to accept those myths as truth.

The Christ Myth theory has some interesting points, but the idea that Jesus definitely is a myth is not a foregone conclusion by any means.

Again, the more I understand about history and how it's studied, but more messy it appears. It's difficult to separate fact from fiction.
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13-06-2014, 10:52 AM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
Quote:How would you explain the fact that most secular historians except that Jesus probably did live? They would even say that there is more evidence of his existence than many other accepted well-known historical figures.


And every time I investigate the evidence for such claims all I ever find is the fucking bible. That ain't evidence.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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13-06-2014, 12:49 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(13-06-2014 10:52 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:How would you explain the fact that most secular historians except that Jesus probably did live? They would even say that there is more evidence of his existence than many other accepted well-known historical figures.


And every time I investigate the evidence for such claims all I ever find is the fucking bible. That ain't evidence.

I always think of Jesus in the same light as King Arthur or Robin Hood. It might have been based on someone real but human beings are wonderful storytellers and love a good plot with great characters . We humans are fantastic at enhancing and embellishing events to the point of bearly resembeling the original happening. Storytelling engages our imagination and helps us cope with stuff, especially in ancient times when on one knew how the world worked. Storytelling is also very tribal and helps connect a group of people together.

Stories are why people love movies and books and TV shows and it's why we love heros so we can retell the heroic event over and over again, adding extra stuff with each retelling of the tale.

Jesus is just a story with maybe a slight, small seed of a real person in the beginning.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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14-06-2014, 12:15 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(13-06-2014 10:50 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  His point is that if we used the same criteria for other historical figures, then we'd have to reject many of them. And just because we accept that historical figures have had myths grow up around them, it doesn't mean we have to accept those myths as truth.

Every time I hear that argument, I grind my teeth. There is virtually no evidence outside of the various gospels, and they have been shown unreliable.

Please list a few non-Biblical historical figures for whom there is less evidence, and explain how their non-existence would matter.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-06-2014, 12:27 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
(11-06-2014 09:26 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(07-06-2014 12:34 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  They were a heterogeneous group, but some generalizations can be made about them. They were well respected amongst most Jews. Josephus numbered them at about four thousand, and writes they had a strong affection for each other.

I thought you said they were heteros ? Tongue

They were. But once in a while, they also craved a little man-on-man action. Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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14-06-2014, 01:25 PM
RE: Did Jesus Exist? Or Was He a Myth?
Quote:I always think of Jesus in the same light as King Arthur or Robin Hood. It might have been based on someone real but human beings are wonderful storytellers and love a good plot with great characters .

I don't think you can grant the theists that much latitude. They are the first to deny any other god stories except their own. If there was a kernel of truth to "jesus" then why not Osiris? Or Thor? Or Shiva? Or Marduk? Or Apollo?

No. The same shits who swear by jesus and allah will deny all other gods so fuck 'em.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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