Did Jesus Really Exist?
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19-07-2011, 05:31 AM
 
Did Jesus Really Exist?
I mean, c'mon! Think about it, the only proof we have that he actually did is that stupid book I put at the corner of my desk to make sure the verses that proves it wrong is actually there. Other than that, we don't have his EXACT birthdate other than the birthdate of the sun god Horus, we don't have specific remains that actually clarifies Jesus' existence, aaaaand he doesn't have any descendants to prove it. So, does he or does he not?
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19-07-2011, 06:49 AM
RE: Did Jesus Really Exist?
On the whole, probably not. Lots of local preachers, rabble-rousers, prophets and rebels running around, as you'd expect in any foreign-occupied country. Lots of them were crucified, since that was the Roman's favoured mode of discouraging sedition. No specific mention of a Jesu Josephson, but then, i wouldn't expect all the records of local governors and military commanders to be retained. The incident didn't make a big splash in the annals of Rome.
It doesn't matter, though: regard him as a composite character of all the unsung, unappreciated Judean martyrs ... and Frankish, and Celtic and German, Egyptian and Persian. The sacrifice is what counts - humans just love a good torture victim. Long after the fact, of course.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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19-07-2011, 07:02 AM
RE: Did Jesus Really Exist?
Hi,

The quick answer is that it is very likely that someone called Jesus Christ existed.

The problem in proving or disproving his existance is due to the complete absence of eye witness accounts that substantiate what's in the bible. There aren't any.

Jesus is mentioned just a few years after his death by a number of notable historians, my favourite is Josephus, but scholars as far away as Persia mention a chap called Jesus creating a bit of stir in downtown Jerusalem.

What's interesting, and tends to stir most Christian apologists into something of a froth, is the fact that none of these historians describe Jesus as a divine being, none of them mention his divinity, miracles or ressurection.

Did a Jewish itinerant preacher called Jesus of Nazareth exist? Yes - Supported by evidence.
Did he teach a message that was largely at odds with the Orthodox Jewish views of his contemparies? Yes - Supported by evidence.
Did this lead to his death? Probably, the fact that the cruxifiction story is repeated accurately by all 3 authors of the Gospels gives it a bit of weight. Yeah, I meant 3, a guy who wasn't called Mark wrote Mark, Someone called Q (no link to James Bond unfortuately) wrote most of Luke & Matthew, and a chap in Ephesus wrote John....this importent side-note rarely gets the attention it deserves in Sunday School.

EVERYTHING else in the gospel story, the lineage of Jesus, his divinity, the miracles, his birth, when he said things and where he said things cannot be proved and is considered a "matter of personal faith" by the vast majority of serious historians on the planet.

Hope that helps

S
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19-07-2011, 07:07 AM
RE: Did Jesus Really Exist?
The short answer is: unknown.

We simply don't have enough viable information to say for certain, or really within a reasonable doubt, one way or the other. It's what bothers me the most about apologists' claims that he existed and performed miracles and was god.

Personally I have no problem accepting that someone or someones existed on which the myth and legend of Jesus Christ was placed upon - but to claim absolute knowledge of this person irritates me to no end.

Our brains deceive us on a regular basis, so we have to find ways to fight back.
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19-07-2011, 09:43 AM
RE: Did Jesus Really Exist?
Most likely Jesus did exist.. The reason scholars think that he did, has to do with how certain problems in the Bible are handled. For example.. Matt and Luke go to a hell of a lot of trouble to get Jesus born in Bethlehem to fulfill "prophecy". This does not make sense if they were going to make the person up... they would have made him up born in Bethlehem and dispense with the difficulty. Jesus was known to have come from Nazareth... so a "story" had to be made up to get him born in Bethlehem. Along with a story on how he ended up in Nazareth.

Another example.. Jesus is Baptized by John the Baptist. This is a major Christian embarrassment because it was thought that the person doing the baptizing was "superior" to the person being baptized. A lot of effort is placed by biblical authors in explaining why Jesus is still superior to John when he was Baptized by him. Again, if you are just going to make someone up why go to all this trouble?

More than likely there was someone named Jesus of Nazareth who was crucified for insurrection of the state. But that is really were it all ends. Everything else we know about him comes from interested and bias accounts. The Jesus in the Bible is different from book to book. The Jesus in Mark is way different than the Jesus of John. The Jesus in Mark is just a poor Jew... the Jesus in John is a Greek philosopher. So the man probably existed.. but most of the stories about him never happened.

“We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.” Orson Welles
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19-07-2011, 09:49 AM
 
RE: Did Jesus Really Exist?
(19-07-2011 07:02 AM)Shannow Wrote:  Hi,

The quick answer is that it is very likely that someone called Jesus Christ existed.

The problem in proving or disproving his existance is due to the complete absence of eye witness accounts that substantiate what's in the bible. There aren't any.

Jesus is mentioned just a few years after his death by a number of notable historians, my favourite is Josephus, but scholars as far away as Persia mention a chap called Jesus creating a bit of stir in downtown Jerusalem.

What's interesting, and tends to stir most Christian apologists into something of a froth, is the fact that none of these historians describe Jesus as a divine being, none of them mention his divinity, miracles or ressurection.

Did a Jewish itinerant preacher called Jesus of Nazareth exist? Yes - Supported by evidence.
Did he teach a message that was largely at odds with the Orthodox Jewish views of his contemparies? Yes - Supported by evidence.
Did this lead to his death? Probably, the fact that the cruxifiction story is repeated accurately by all 3 authors of the Gospels gives it a bit of weight. Yeah, I meant 3, a guy who wasn't called Mark wrote Mark, Someone called Q (no link to James Bond unfortuately) wrote most of Luke & Matthew, and a chap in Ephesus wrote John....this importent side-note rarely gets the attention it deserves in Sunday School.

EVERYTHING else in the gospel story, the lineage of Jesus, his divinity, the miracles, his birth, when he said things and where he said things cannot be proved and is considered a "matter of personal faith" by the vast majority of serious historians on the planet.

Hope that helps

S

Do you know of any good collection of sources? I've heard so many different claims about his historical accuracy but have never seen a good collection of these sources and how we know who wrote what.
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19-07-2011, 11:10 AM
RE: Did Jesus Really Exist?
He WAS the Christ, but it wasn't his name.

"Christ" (pronounced /ˈkraɪst/) is derived from the Greek Χριστός (Khristós) meaning "the anointed one", a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), usually transliterated into English as Messiah.[41][42] In the Septuagint version of the Hebrew Bible (written well over a century before the time of Jesus), the word Christ was used to translate into Greek the Hebrew word Māšîaḥ.[43] In Matthew 16:16, Apostle Peter's profession: "You are the Christ" identifies Jesus as the Messiah.[44] In post-biblical usage Christ became a name, one part of the name "Jesus Christ", but originally it was a title (the Messiah) and not a name.[45]

He would have been called Yeshua bar Yahosef bar Yaqub

Also much harder to pretend he was a white dude with a name like that.
[Image: Middle+Eastern+Jesus.jpg] Well that looks more realistic.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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19-07-2011, 11:27 AM (This post was last modified: 19-07-2011 11:33 AM by Shannow.)
RE: Did Jesus Really Exist?
Quote:Do you know of any good collection of sources? I've heard so many different claims about his historical accuracy but have never seen a good collection of these sources and how we know who wrote what.


Hi Zach,

My top 10 non-biblical historians...I need a new hobby... Wink

Remember none of these are eye-witnesses...

1. Tacitus – Calls Christianity a ‘mischievous superstition’ that ‘breaks out’ across Judea. Does mention Christ as a kind of footnote.
2. Pliny the Younger (mentions Christ)
3. Josephus – One of his seminal works, the Testimonium Flavium was bastardized by Christians in the 3rd/4th century...but he was Jewish, was educated and actually served in the Roman army. I like him...but plenty don't.
4. The Babylonian Talmud (Possibly mentions Christ, infers that Christianity is Jewish apostasy...lol)
5. Lucian of Samosata (no mention of a divine figure, he calls Jesus a man, mentions a new sect of Jews called Christians)
6. Suetonius – 1 mention in the 25th chapter of 1 book. He mentions followers of ‘Chrestus’ .....Doesn’t mention Jesus specifically.
7. Philo – Christians love this idea that he might have been in Jerusalem at the time of the crucifixion. If I’d witness the son on an immortal die, I’d write about it...strange Philo doesn’t.
8. Mara Bar-Serapion...Syrian philosopher who writes about the death of a 'Wise-King'...majority of historians think he's talking about Jesus.
9. Thallus - Is an interesting histoiran who doesn't mention Jesus, but mentions an eclipse at roughly the time of the crucifixion. Thallus actually wrote a massive history from the Trojan War to about AD 50. Unfortunately much of it has been lost...but the bits we do have don't mention Jesus...further evidence that he didn't rate that highly in the historical consciousness of the time.
10. I'm going to say Celsus at number 10....he comes about 200 years after Christ, but I really like him because he was openly critical of the accuracy and ethics of the gospels....he'd fit right in here...

There are loads of 'em...I'm sure some of the other forum members like Robertus or Mark Fulton know more...
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19-07-2011, 12:08 PM (This post was last modified: 19-07-2011 12:13 PM by myst32.)
RE: Did Jesus Really Exist?
(19-07-2011 11:10 AM)lucradis Wrote:  He WAS the Christ, but it wasn't his name.

"Christ" (pronounced /ˈkraɪst/) is derived from the Greek Χριστός (Khristós) meaning "the anointed one", a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), usually transliterated into English as Messiah.[41][42] In the Septuagint version of the Hebrew Bible (written well over a century before the time of Jesus), the word Christ was used to translate into Greek the Hebrew word Māšîaḥ.[43] In Matthew 16:16, Apostle Peter's profession: "You are the Christ" identifies Jesus as the Messiah.[44] In post-biblical usage Christ became a name, one part of the name "Jesus Christ", but originally it was a title (the Messiah) and not a name.[45]

He would have been called Yeshua bar Yahosef bar Yaqub

Also much harder to pretend he was a white dude with a name like that.
[Image: Middle+Eastern+Jesus.jpg] Well that looks more realistic.

hahahaha

I find that Jesus's appearance to be one of the great analogies of Christianity.


From this...
[Image: jr8yg0.jpg]
To this...
[Image: 2upsklz.jpg]

A complete modern overhaul...

here is another...

From this...
[Image: w9cp3m.jpg]
To this...
[Image: 21ad1yw.jpg]

All evidence points to the first humans being black... not white..

It's all bullshit folks, and its bad for you.- George Carlin

“We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.” Orson Welles
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19-07-2011, 01:39 PM
RE: Did Jesus Really Exist?
Just for information Guys , they have a similar thread going over on Rational Skepticism, titled ,
"What Can We Reasonably Infer About The Historical Jesus?"

It was started back in Feb 2010 and is still going strong ,so far it runs to 786 pages covering 15,719 posts .

Just so you know ,this one can run and run.(bring sandwiches).

Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
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"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
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