Did Jesus Really Exist?
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26-07-2011, 02:09 AM
 
RE: Did Jesus Really Exist?
The editing and formation of the Bible came from members of the early Christian Church. Since the fathers of the Church possessed the scriptoria and determined what would appear in the Bible, there occurred plenty of opportunity and motive to change, modify, or create texts that might bolster the position of the Church or the members of the Church themselves.

The orthodox Church also fought against competing Christian cults. Irenaeus, who determined the inclusion of the four (now canonical) gospels, wrote his infamous book, "Against the Heresies." According to Romer, "Irenaeus' great book not only became the yardstick of major heresies and their refutations, the starting-point of later inquisitions, but simply by saying what Christianity was not it also, in a curious inverted way, became a definition of the orthodox faith." [Romer] If a Jesus did exist, perhaps eyewitness writings got burnt along with them because of their heretical nature. We will never know.

In attempting to salvage the Bible the respected revisionist and scholar, Bruce Metzger has written extensively on the problems of the New Testament. In his book, "The Text of the New Testament-- Its Transmission, Corruption and Restoration, Metzger addresses: Errors arising from faulty eyesight; Errors arising from faulty hearing; Errors of the mind; Errors of judgment; Clearing up historical and geographical difficulties; and Alterations made because of doctrinal considerations. [Metzger]

The Church had such power over people, that to question the Church could result in death. Regardless of what the Church claimed, most people simply believed what their priests told them.

In letter LII To Nepotian, Jerome writes about his teacher, Gregory of Nazianzus when he asked him to explain a phrase in Luke, Nazianzus evaded his request by saying “I will tell you about it in church, and there, when all the people applaud me, you will be forced against your will to know what you do not know at all. For, if you alone remain silent, every one will put you down for a fool." Jerome responds with, "There is nothing so easy as by sheer volubility to deceive a common crowd or an uneducated congregation."

In the 5th century, John Chrysostom in his "Treatise on the Priesthood, Book 1," wrote, "And often it is necessary to deceive, and to do the greatest benefits by means of this device, whereas he who has gone by a straight course has done great mischief to the person whom he has not deceived."

Ignatius Loyola of the 16th century wrote in his Spiritual Exercises: "To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that the white which I see, is black, if the Hierarchical Church so decides it"

Martin Luther opined: "What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church … a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them."

With such admission to accepting lies, the burning of heretical texts, Bible errors and alterations, how could any honest scholar take any book from the New Testament as absolute, much less using extraneous texts that support a Church's intransigent and biased position, as reliable evidence?
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29-07-2011, 02:58 AM (This post was last modified: 29-07-2011 03:48 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Did Jesus Really Exist?
(19-07-2011 12:08 PM)myst32 Wrote:  
(19-07-2011 11:10 AM)lucradis Wrote:  He WAS the Christ, but it wasn't his name.

"Christ" (pronounced /ˈkraɪst/) is derived from the Greek Χριστός (Khristós) meaning "the anointed one", a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), usually transliterated into English as Messiah.[41][42] In the Septuagint version of the Hebrew Bible (written well over a century before the time of Jesus), the word Christ was used to translate into Greek the Hebrew word Māšîaḥ.[43] In Matthew 16:16, Apostle Peter's profession: "You are the Christ" identifies Jesus as the Messiah.[44] In post-biblical usage Christ became a name, one part of the name "Jesus Christ", but originally it was a title (the Messiah) and not a name.[45]

He would have been called Yeshua bar Yahosef bar Yaqub

Also much harder to pretend he was a white dude with a name like that.
[Image: Middle+Eastern+Jesus.jpg] Well that looks more realistic.

hahahaha

I find that Jesus's appearance to be one of the great analogies of Christianity.


From this...
[Image: jr8yg0.jpg]
To this...
[Image: 2upsklz.jpg]

A complete modern overhaul...

here is another...

From this...
[Image: w9cp3m.jpg]
To this...
[Image: 21ad1yw.jpg]

All evidence points to the first humans being black... not white..

It's all bullshit folks, and its bad for you.- George Carlin

I like this one cos it accurately portrays what J would have thought of gentiles...

http://www.markfulton.org/wp-content/upl...517886.jpg

(26-07-2011 02:09 AM)cyberninja Wrote:  The editing and formation of the Bible came from members of the early Christian Church. Since the fathers of the Church possessed the scriptoria and determined what would appear in the Bible, there occurred plenty of opportunity and motive to change, modify, or create texts that might bolster the position of the Church or the members of the Church themselves.

The orthodox Church also fought against competing Christian cults. Irenaeus, who determined the inclusion of the four (now canonical) gospels, wrote his infamous book, "Against the Heresies." According to Romer, "Irenaeus' great book not only became the yardstick of major heresies and their refutations, the starting-point of later inquisitions, but simply by saying what Christianity was not it also, in a curious inverted way, became a definition of the orthodox faith." [Romer] If a Jesus did exist, perhaps eyewitness writings got burnt along with them because of their heretical nature. We will never know.

In attempting to salvage the Bible the respected revisionist and scholar, Bruce Metzger has written extensively on the problems of the New Testament. In his book, "The Text of the New Testament-- Its Transmission, Corruption and Restoration, Metzger addresses: Errors arising from faulty eyesight; Errors arising from faulty hearing; Errors of the mind; Errors of judgment; Clearing up historical and geographical difficulties; and Alterations made because of doctrinal considerations. [Metzger]

The Church had such power over people, that to question the Church could result in death. Regardless of what the Church claimed, most people simply believed what their priests told them.

In letter LII To Nepotian, Jerome writes about his teacher, Gregory of Nazianzus when he asked him to explain a phrase in Luke, Nazianzus evaded his request by saying “I will tell you about it in church, and there, when all the people applaud me, you will be forced against your will to know what you do not know at all. For, if you alone remain silent, every one will put you down for a fool." Jerome responds with, "There is nothing so easy as by sheer volubility to deceive a common crowd or an uneducated congregation."

In the 5th century, John Chrysostom in his "Treatise on the Priesthood, Book 1," wrote, "And often it is necessary to deceive, and to do the greatest benefits by means of this device, whereas he who has gone by a straight course has done great mischief to the person whom he has not deceived."

Ignatius Loyola of the 16th century wrote in his Spiritual Exercises: "To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that the white which I see, is black, if the Hierarchical Church so decides it"

Martin Luther opined: "What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church … a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them."

With such admission to accepting lies, the burning of heretical texts, Bible errors and alterations, how could any honest scholar take any book from the New Testament as absolute, much less using extraneous texts that support a Church's intransigent and biased position, as reliable evidence?

Bravo!


(25-07-2011 08:02 AM)nontheocrat Wrote:  I know several teachings attributed to Jesus were actually in the Dead Sea Scrolls. These scrolls were part if the library kept by a sect called the Essenes and if Jesus was not one himself he appeared to be influenced by them.

The Essene movement was started by Jews who felt the priests in Jerusalem (backed by Harod and Rome) were illegitimate since they could not trace their ancestry to the biblical Aaron. The Essenses make it their goal to lead a revolution, but more interested in overthrowing the Maccabean priests than Rome. I have several books in my library on the Dead Sea Scrolls that paint this picture. If true it could give Jesus overturning tables in the temple an entirely different meaning.

Hi everyone....I've been working and not keeping up to date in this fabulous post. You guys know a lot! My 2c worth?....Well, I agree about Essenes/dead sea scrolls/Jesus connection. BUT....some of the authors of the dead sea scrolls wrote about a fantasised victorious battle against the "kittim"...the Romans. They hated the Romans with a passion, and the Temple hierarchy too.

Jesus was no small fish. He took over a well established movement of Jews that John had created. Herod knew he was a trouble causer and chased him around the Galillean countryside. J. caused a stir when he entered Jerusalem. The chief priests, some pharisees and Pilate took him seriously. If our J. had played his cards right he could have created a serious revolt in Jerusalem, and the lives of Romans and those who supported Rome would have been threatened. I believe J. was trying to overthrow the government in Jerusalem...something that that happened 30 odd years later. They got to him before he got to them.
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03-08-2011, 04:23 AM
RE: Did Jesus Really Exist?
Quote:Jesus was no small fish. He took over a well established movement of Jews that John had created. Herod knew he was a trouble causer and chased him around the Galillean countryside. J. caused a stir when he entered Jerusalem. The chief priests, some pharisees and Pilate took him seriously. If our J. had played his cards right he could have created a serious revolt in Jerusalem, and the lives of Romans and those who supported Rome would have been threatened. I believe J. was trying to overthrow the government in Jerusalem...something that that happened 30 odd years later. They got to him before he got to them.

"Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to god the things that are god's"

Doesn't sound like a revolutionary to me. Where do you find evidence of his ability to cause a serious revolt in Jerusalem ? How could an illiterate nobody try to overthrow the Roman occupation ? Actually there is good evidence in the New Testament that he thought "my kingdom is NOT of this world", and while the disciples though he was about "political restoration" of the Kingdom of Israel, (Acts 1:6), in fact he did NOT think that, and in order to prove that voluntarily submitted to execution. He certainly showed no revolutionary spirit in his trial and execution, (which he could have just avoided by simply staying away from the Passover festival that year).

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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03-08-2011, 06:36 AM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2011 07:21 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Did Jesus Really Exist?
(03-08-2011 04:23 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
Quote:Jesus was no small fish. He took over a well established movement of Jews that John had created. Herod knew he was a trouble causer and chased him around the Galillean countryside. J. caused a stir when he entered Jerusalem. The chief priests, some pharisees and Pilate took him seriously. If our J. had played his cards right he could have created a serious revolt in Jerusalem, and the lives of Romans and those who supported Rome would have been threatened. I believe J. was trying to overthrow the government in Jerusalem...something that that happened 30 odd years later. They got to him before he got to them.

"Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to god the things that are god's"

Doesn't sound like a revolutionary to me. Where do you find evidence of his ability to cause a serious revolt in Jerusalem ? How could an illiterate nobody try to overthrow the Roman occupation ? Actually there is good evidence in the New Testament that he thought "my kingdom is NOT of this world", and while the disciples though he was about "political restoration" of the Kingdom of Israel, (Acts 1:6), in fact he did NOT think that, and in order to prove that voluntarily submitted to execution. He certainly showed no revolutionary spirit in his trial and execution, (which he could have just avoided by simply staying away from the Passover festival that year).

Ok Bucky...I hear you. The answer is that "it ain't necessarily so" when you read the gospels. They were written and edited for a mainly gentile audience. Hence Jesus the zealot was made to say "render unto Rome....." , "I'm not a zealot" , "I think I'll have lunch with the tax collector", "love your enemies", "turn the other cheek" , "my kingdom is not of this world" etc etc. ROMAN PROPAGANDA!!!

What sane person voluntarily submits to execution? To appease his dad for the sins of the gentile world? LETS GET REAL! Have a read of Peter Cresswell's "Jesus the Terrorist"....I only discovered it after i had realised Jesus was a terrorist LOL.

ps there is a lot more to it than this....I'm not quite sure where to start LOL
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03-08-2011, 07:51 AM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2011 07:55 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Did Jesus Really Exist?
I HAVE read the gospels, and Cresswell is no biblical scholar, or even an Ancient Near East archeologist or cultural expert of any kind. Where exactly is the EVIDENCE that the Romans "chased him" anywhere ? Are you trying to say the Romans actually could NOT find him if they really wanted to ? Hahaha. The evidence there is, seems to say that the JEWS wanted him gone, and that was because he threatened their temple economy. It's nice if someone wants to assert that he took over John the Baptizers "movement", but lets see the EVIDENCE for that. I can say he was an Egyptian mole and was trying to bring down the Jewish temple authorities in favor of Amun-Ra, and there is as much evidence for that as you have. He didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of bringing down the Jerusalem government, and he offered NO resistence when arrested.
Quote:it ain't necessarily so" when you read the gospels. They were written and edited for a mainly gentile audience.
Prove it. Each of the gospels was written for a different audience; Mark for the Romans, under the sposorship of Peter, Matthew for the Jews, (as he spends most of the time establishing the fulfillment of their prophesies), Luke for the Greeks, and John later for the Greek Gnostics. Where EXACTLY is your evidence that the Romans, AFTER the fall of Jerusalem, (when the gospels were assembled/edited/written) had any reason, or ANY motivation to continue to bother about a long dead Jewish preacher ?
Quote:What sane person voluntarily submits to execution?
What sane person indeed ? Unless he was a RELIGIOUS zealot who was trying to show his followers his "kingdom was NOT of this world".
Quote:To appease his dad for the sins of the gentile world?
THAT is NOWHERE in the gospels. It was made up by Paul, in his attempt to start the new religion.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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03-08-2011, 08:30 AM
RE: Did Jesus Really Exist?
(03-08-2011 07:51 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I HAVE read the gospels, and Cresswell is no biblical scholar, or even an Ancient Near East archeologist or cultural expert of any kind. Where exactly is the EVIDENCE that the Romans "chased him" anywhere ? Are you trying to say the Romans actually could NOT find him if they really wanted to ? Hahaha. The evidence there is, seems to say that the JEWS wanted him gone, and that was because he threatened their temple economy. It's nice if someone wants to assert that he took over John the Baptizers "movement", but lets see the EVIDENCE for that. I can say he was an Egyptian mole and was trying to bring down the Jewish temple authorities in favor of Amun-Ra, and there is as much evidence for that as you have. He didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of bringing down the Jerusalem government, and he offered NO resistence when arrested.
Quote:it ain't necessarily so" when you read the gospels. They were written and edited for a mainly gentile audience.
Prove it. Each of the gospels was written for a different audience; Mark for the Romans, under the sposorship of Peter, Matthew for the Jews, (as he spends most of the time establishing the fulfillment of their prophesies), Luke for the Greeks, and John later for the Greek Gnostics. Where EXACTLY is your evidence that the Romans, AFTER the fall of Jerusalem, (when the gospels were assembled/edited/written) had any reason, or ANY motivation to continue to bother about a long dead Jewish preacher ?
Quote:What sane person voluntarily submits to execution?
What sane person indeed ? Unless he was a RELIGIOUS zealot who was trying to show his followers his "kingdom was NOT of this world".
Quote:To appease his dad for the sins of the gentile world?
THAT is NOWHERE in the gospels. It was made up by Paul, in his attempt to start the new religion.

Hi....I did have a post called "Jesus was a terrorist"....last comment was on 26/6/11..did you see it?

I have read the first 80 pages of Cresswell's book.....(I'm waiting for hard copy from amazon at present) and was very impressed. Have you read any of it?

I hear you about solid evidence. That's impossible to get when talking about Jesus. We can, however, make some very realistic assumptions about what probably really happened if we place J. into the socio/political/religious context of his time and place in history. We must use some evidence from the gospels. I can expand on this if you are willing to question me.

Your statements about the gospels, in my humble opinion, are a little simplistic. (please don't think I'm calling YOU simple...far from it). Remember that each gospel "evolved" over a 200 year (roughly) period, so what you are saying about the intended audience is only partly true.

It is past midnight in my part of the world. I will talk more tomorrow. Goodnight.
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03-08-2011, 10:51 AM
RE: Did Jesus Really Exist?
(03-08-2011 08:30 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(03-08-2011 07:51 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I HAVE read the gospels, and Cresswell is no biblical scholar, or even an Ancient Near East archeologist or cultural expert of any kind. Where exactly is the EVIDENCE that the Romans "chased him" anywhere ? Are you trying to say the Romans actually could NOT find him if they really wanted to ? Hahaha. The evidence there is, seems to say that the JEWS wanted him gone, and that was because he threatened their temple economy. It's nice if someone wants to assert that he took over John the Baptizers "movement", but lets see the EVIDENCE for that. I can say he was an Egyptian mole and was trying to bring down the Jewish temple authorities in favor of Amun-Ra, and there is as much evidence for that as you have. He didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of bringing down the Jerusalem government, and he offered NO resistence when arrested.
Quote:it ain't necessarily so" when you read the gospels. They were written and edited for a mainly gentile audience.
Prove it. Each of the gospels was written for a different audience; Mark for the Romans, under the sposorship of Peter, Matthew for the Jews, (as he spends most of the time establishing the fulfillment of their prophesies), Luke for the Greeks, and John later for the Greek Gnostics. Where EXACTLY is your evidence that the Romans, AFTER the fall of Jerusalem, (when the gospels were assembled/edited/written) had any reason, or ANY motivation to continue to bother about a long dead Jewish preacher ?
Quote:What sane person voluntarily submits to execution?
What sane person indeed ? Unless he was a RELIGIOUS zealot who was trying to show his followers his "kingdom was NOT of this world".
Quote:To appease his dad for the sins of the gentile world?
THAT is NOWHERE in the gospels. It was made up by Paul, in his attempt to start the new religion.

Hi....I did have a post called "Jesus was a terrorist"....last comment was on 26/6/11..did you see it?

I have read the first 80 pages of Cresswell's book.....(I'm waiting for hard copy from amazon at present) and was very impressed. Have you read any of it?

I hear you about solid evidence. That's impossible to get when talking about Jesus. We can, however, make some very realistic assumptions about what probably really happened if we place J. into the socio/political/religious context of his time and place in history. We must use some evidence from the gospels. I can expand on this if you are willing to question me.

Your statements about the gospels, in my humble opinion, are a little simplistic. (please don't think I'm calling YOU simple...far from it). Remember that each gospel "evolved" over a 200 year (roughly) period, so what you are saying about the intended audience is only partly true.

It is past midnight in my part of the world. I will talk more tomorrow. Goodnight.

I will order Cresswell's book also. In a way it bolsters my opinion he was an economic threat. The only reason I have to think that, is that the gospels document his arrest after his temple actions. If there really is some other stuff there, I would be the first in line to read about it, and consider it. Talk to you soon. Cool

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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04-08-2011, 11:45 AM
 
RE: Did Jesus Really Exist?
Im not a atheist thats why I believe that God Exist
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04-08-2011, 05:41 PM
RE: Did Jesus Really Exist?
(04-08-2011 11:45 AM)Jose099 Wrote:  Im not a atheist thats why I believe that God Exist

Hallo, welcome to our discussion. would you care to elaborate?
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05-08-2011, 09:40 AM
 
RE: Did Jesus Really Exist?
(04-08-2011 11:45 AM)Jose099 Wrote:  Im not a atheist thats why I believe that God Exist

learn engrish. . .
im not a theists thats why i dont believe god exists.
see the stupidity in that?
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