Did Jesus Really Exist?
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11-09-2011, 03:09 PM
RE: Did Jesus Really Exist?
(04-08-2011 05:41 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(04-08-2011 11:45 AM)Jose099 Wrote:  Im not a atheist thats why I believe that God Exist

Hallo, welcome to our discussion. would you care to elaborate?

Check out his sig. He's not here to discuss, he's a spammer. Advertising some locksmith in Naperville.

Better without God, and happier too.
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11-09-2011, 06:03 PM (This post was last modified: 11-09-2011 06:06 PM by mysticjbyrd.)
RE: Did Jesus Really Exist?
(19-07-2011 05:31 AM)SumAtheosMagnus Wrote:  I mean, c'mon! Think about it, the only proof we have that he actually did is that stupid book I put at the corner of my desk to make sure the verses that proves it wrong is actually there. Other than that, we don't have his EXACT birthdate other than the birthdate of the sun god Horus, we don't have specific remains that actually clarifies Jesus' existence, aaaaand he doesn't have any descendants to prove it. So, does he or does he not?

Of course he is not real...the story of a "Jesus" had been passed down for generations, and the details of the story are copied from dozens of similar stories far older than the bible.

And even if you ignore that, there is the simple fact that Jesus Christ is not mentioned anywhere in history. Which is shocking, because there are a vast collection of documents from that era, especially regarding false prophets. Yet his name is not mentioned once, and considering how important he supposedly was, the chances of that are astronomical.

To any logical mind, these two facts together clearly indicates that he never actually existed.
And to any sane mind, even if JC did exist, he was clearly not the son of any god.
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13-09-2011, 02:19 AM (This post was last modified: 13-09-2011 09:06 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Did Jesus Really Exist?
Hi everyone, I've just been rereading this thread. What a great thread it is, and there are some people who really know their history commenting on it. Let's keep it going!

I've decided to share something with you. It's kind of like the big punchline of my book, so I'm a bit "precious" about putting it out there...but what the hell....I want to share it with you. When I came to these conclusions I was just "blown away" by what they meant. It took me 6 years to get to this.

This does not mean I think this is "the final word"....but I promise you if you can read this and understand there may be some truth in it....it is riveting stuff. It is a bit long, but I think the read is worth it.

Jews and Romans

The relationship between Jews and Romans in the years before, during, and after Jesus is an extremely important topic as it places the whole Jesus story into context.
Robert Eisenman, http://www.roberteisenman.com/ in his exhaustively researched and very detailed book “James, Brother of Jesus” presents a sensible assessment of Jesus’ time and the decades afterwards. He divides Palestine into two power blocks: the rulers and the populists. The rulers were the Romans, and those who had been given power by them. They included the Herodian puppet dynasty, the Sadducees, the Sanhedrin, the collaborationist Pharisees, and the gentiles, which included Paul’s Christians. The populists were the native population, most of who, to varying degrees were opposed to Roman domination. They included the Nazarenes, the Qumran community (writers of the Dead Sea Scrolls), and various other groups including other Essenes and zealots whose exact delineations and relationships will probably never be clarified. United under the influence of James, they opposed the Roman establishment. Eisenman portrays James as a xenophobic fundamentalist Jewish figure. James was quite probably, in his own time and amongst his own people, a more significant figure than Jesus.

The Dead Sea Scrolls substantiate the Jewish perspective of a people living under harsh and brutal Roman domination, but there was more to the antagonism towards Romans than just the political and economic suppression of Jews. They were an intensely proud people who imagined themselves as God’s special people on earth. Despite their many sectarian affiliations most of them were united by a determination to preserve their common Jewish identity to the exclusion of all alternatives. Many of them considered it their duty to inform the world about the power and majesty of their God and bring all nations under his authority. Jews wanted to be what the Romans actually were; the people at the top that bought peace and order to humanity. They grossly over-estimated their own importance and their own abilities because in comparison with their peers they had little history of any long-lasting successful government, no well-disciplined army organized enough to be effective, and were notorious for fighting amongst themselves. They had their heads in the clouds dreaming about a messiah who would create the kingdom of God on earth. They had an invisible mythical Yahweh, whereas the Romans had a very real and effective Caesar.

Eisenman and other eminent scholars, including Douglas Lockhart http://douglaslockhart.com/ and Peter Cresswell http://jesustheterrorist.com/about-the-author.htm , claim copies of James’ sermons are to be found in the Dead Sea Scrolls thundering against "the Enemy" and "the Liar," referring to someone daring to teach dogma at odds with the traditions of observant Jews. There is only one likely person James could be referring to and that is Paul, whom James would have considered a traitor and an agent of the Roman establishment. It is ironic that Jesus’ brother referred to the creator of Christian theology as a liar. Paul himself was aware that he was a liar. He wrote
“For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?” (Romans 3:7, KJB).

The authors of the scrolls were militant, nationalist zealots, implacably opposed to the occupying Romans, and they were cut from the same cloth as Jesus the Nazarene. The scrolls give us a far more realistic assessment of first century Palestine than the falsified and heavily edited gospels! No wonder the Vatican diligently policed the interpretation of the Dead Sea scrolls in the decades after their discovery. If someone made a good movie based on these historical facts about Jesus, Paul and James it would surely be a mind-bending blockbuster that would rock the Christian establishment http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/carme.htm

“Jesus” is a Gentile Creation

Let’s consider the role of Jesus in this scenario. I have already stated the obvious implication; the real Jesus was not the preacher of ethics he is portrayed as in the Bible. He was a man whose primary agenda was the establishment of a Jewish kingdom of God in Palestine. The stories in the Gospels of him eating with tax collectors, who were working for the Roman government, were designed to make him pro-gentile. On occasions in the Gospels he denigrated aspects of Jewish Law, which no true Jew would ever do, so this was fictional too. The benign preacher who claimed he wasn’t a zealot and was murdered at the insistence of a Jewish crowd is a fabrication by gentile authors and interpolators so that the story undermined Jesus as king of the Jews and appealed to a gentile audience.

Christianity is a religion that would have been totally foreign to the real Jesus, the character it was allegedly modelled on. This is big news. It means Christianity is based on little more than mostly untrue stories about Jesus and the ramblings and prejudices of Paul. I ask all readers to pause and think about the enormity of that. If a religion is built on a foundation of lies and prejudice it can hardly have any genuine value.

Was Christianity a Roman Plot?

There is another fascinating angle to consider, which I suggest as an interesting possibility. It is possible that Paul’s philosophy may have had its origin in the Roman government. The fact that belief in the divinity of Jesus arose simultaneously in many diverse areas of the empire a number of decades after his death suggests to me that it could have originated from a central source, which definitely wasn’t Nazarene. The inspiration for such a plan would have been to undermine the power of Judaism because the religion itself was the inspiration for fanatics who threatened the stability of the Roman Empire. http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/paul/paul.htm

Jewish zealot extremists promoted the subversive idea that a king of their race would one day soon govern the world on behalf of God and in place of Caesar. Some gentiles were converting to Judaism. The government must have been worried. If they couldn’t subdue the Jews it would have set a dangerous precedent for other races to revolt. They needed to keep control over the valuable trade routes to Asia and Egypt. They must have been thoroughly frustrated at having to use force to suppress Jewish extremists, as it was disruptive, expensive and taxing on the army. There were very legitimate reasons for Roman animosity toward the Jews. Roman soldiers decimated the Temple in 70 CE when there was no real military need to do so.

I think it is likely the government wrote and promoted its own propaganda that included Paul’s writings and the definitive versions of the Gospels. They tried to weaken Judaism from within by dividing it. They knew words could be more effective than weapons. A story that the messiah had already been and gone and was not a political activist, but rather a spiritual intermediary between God and man would have suited their agenda nicely. If the idea caught on, there would be no more messiahs and no more revolts. Blessed are the peacemakers, turn the other cheek and love your enemies meant getting on with the Roman government. To promote such a story would have been a lot less expensive and a lot less hassle than having to repeatedly use the military to suppress religious fanatics.

If there is any truth in this, there could have been many “Pauls” throughout the empire who were working as agents of the Roman government spreading propaganda. Men like Paul could have genuinely thought they were promoting an ideology that was beneficial to the believer as well as to the cause of peace and harmony. If so Paul was part of a very cunning plan, although one that never really achieved what it set out to do.

The book of Acts states:
“Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul” (Acts 13:1 KJV). So the earliest Christian community at Antioch boasted a probable member of the family of Herod Antipas, the pro Roman Tetrarch who had murdered John the Baptist! Paul (Saul) was associated with him.

Paul was kept in “safe custody” under the protection of the Roman governor Felix in Caesaria for two years (see Acts 24,26). We now have a good explanation why. It also explains why the Roman government employed a large contingent of troops to protect Paul in his travels to Caesaria and Rome.

Paul finished his letter to the Philippians off with a salutation:
“All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar's household” (Philippians 4:22 KJV). This confirms that Paul had contact with the Emperor Nero’s household!

Paul’s arrest by the Romans is not necessarily inconsistent with such a scenario. Paul was a little out of control and ended up being a source of civil unrest. He became a fanatic who took his job way too seriously and caused trouble wherever he went. Instead of undermining Judaism he incited Jews to the point of violence, something Rome didn’t want. He had to be taken out of circulation, which the government did by arresting him. Officials outside of Rome did not know what to do with him, so they packed him off to Rome. I suspect his employment was terminated there and he was probably put out to pasture somewhere, which may be why no one knows what happened to him.

If this is true, it was Rome that created a benign messiah. Even today, most non-Jewish people totally misunderstand what the actual Messianic Movement was and how it came into existence. This current misunderstanding was Rome’s doing, and it was deliberate. The government twisted the knife to further wound Judaism by blaming the crucifixion of Jesus on the Jews and making themselves look like the innocent good guys. They then taught that Jesus was a celibate who produced no posterity in case a hope of a royal bloodline still existed. They wanted no more messiahs claiming the right to rule and inciting the Jewish peasants to insurrection. The Roman emperors Vespasian and Domitian would search out real members of the “royal house of David” family in the late decades of the first century to help make sure this didn’t happen. The government hoped the story of the new idol would convince people that true spirituality and the promise of eternal life were synonymous with getting along with the Roman government. It was the winners that wrote the history.

In modern times, this is called disinformation and psychological warfare. It is fascinating to imagine these subversive tactics as part of the first century Roman Empire and jaw dropping to realize this information is still coloring the way modern man, and in particular Christians, look at the world.

If this is true Christianity was the offspring of the Roman war against Israel and Judaism, a plot born to undermine the Jews. The Gospel stories became the most successful literary enterprise ever undertaken in the history of the world. There was an additional benefit when Christianity solidified the allegiance to Rome of superstitious pagans throughout the rest of the Roman Empire.

It took a lot of reading and thinking before the penny dropped for me. I hope the reader understands the significance of this. Are the hairs on the back of your neck standing up? They definitely have been on mine. If this is true Christianity has been the largest fraud ever inflicted on mankind.


References:

Cresswell, Peter 2010 “Jesus the Terrorist” O books, Winchester, UK.

Eisenman, Robert H. “James the Brother of Jesus: The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls”

http://www.uhcg.org/HoI/James-Bro-of-Jesus.html

http://blogcritics.org/culture/article/j...t-warrior/
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13-09-2011, 05:19 AM
RE: Did Jesus Really Exist?
Mark, that is fascinating, but remember that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I have read many claims such as James being the great teacher referred to in the Dead Sea scrolls and have read that many of Jesus' sayings were from them as well.

I definately want to read your book once it is released; however, I'm afraid that your book will be considered too fantastic to be taken seriously.

“There is no sin except stupidity.” Oscar Wilde
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13-09-2011, 08:56 PM (This post was last modified: 13-09-2011 09:07 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Did Jesus Really Exist?
(13-09-2011 05:19 AM)nontheocrat Wrote:  Mark, that is fascinating, but remember that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I have read many claims such as James being the great teacher referred to in the Dead Sea scrolls and have read that many of Jesus' sayings were from them as well.

I definately want to read your book once it is released; however, I'm afraid that your book will be considered too fantastic to be taken seriously.

Hi....thanks for your comments. I agree that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence to be accepted as the definitive truth.

Firstly, bear in mind, I am not claiming "THIS IS HOW IT IS". I can't do that, because the evidence is not good enough. No one knows for sure what happened all those years ago. I am saying there may be truth in this theory, and I do put some evidence forward for it. That evidence however is not rock solid.

I will also say that this story makes infinitely more sense than conventional Christianity.

You are probably familiar with "Q". "Q" was only discovered in the 1800's, yet it is very obvious once one becomes aware of it. The evidence for it was staring people in the face for 1500 years, and nobody recognised it. "My" ideas are not as original as Q, but they do make sense (in my opinion). My point is that if we are willing to keep our minds open, some ideas such as "mine" are not as extraordinary as they first appear.

PS I have fixed up the links in my previous post so they now work....they are worth a read.
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13-09-2011, 09:57 PM
RE: Did Jesus Really Exist?
Mark, Christianity was most definitely a Roman plot.

I am open to the possibility that there was a Jesus the Christos because there were small Christian sects before Jesus was "discovered" by the mother of Constantine, who converted from Paganism and brought it to Constantine, who, with his henchmen saw the possibilities of gaining control over the warring factions within the Roman Empire. Of course, it was also an opportunity to create great wealth, the evidence of which stands today in the Vatican and the Catholic Church Worldwide.

The Jesus story is so obviously a careful construction, using myths, legends and other aspects from older religions and faiths. Convert or die, then hell if you don't believe, heaven if you do.

Yes, I agree, Christianity is THE greatest scam placed on humanity in the history of the planet.

I hope your book is successful and well read and that it creates doubt in the minds of the followers and believers in Christianity.

The following site and the book of the same name really opened my mind.

Jesus Never Existed

"To think of what the world has suffered from superstition, from religion, from the worship of beast and stone and god, is
almost enough to make one insane."

Robert G. Ingersoll
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14-09-2011, 01:50 AM
RE: Did Jesus Really Exist?
(13-09-2011 09:57 PM)Organon Wrote:  Mark, Christianity was most definitely a Roman plot.

I am open to the possibility that there was a Jesus the Christos because there were small Christian sects before Jesus was "discovered" by the mother of Constantine, who converted from Paganism and brought it to Constantine, who, with his henchmen saw the possibilities of gaining control over the warring factions within the Roman Empire. Of course, it was also an opportunity to create great wealth, the evidence of which stands today in the Vatican and the Catholic Church Worldwide.

The Jesus story is so obviously a careful construction, using myths, legends and other aspects from older religions and faiths. Convert or die, then hell if you don't believe, heaven if you do.

Yes, I agree, Christianity is THE greatest scam placed on humanity in the history of the planet.

I hope your book is successful and well read and that it creates doubt in the minds of the followers and believers in Christianity.

The following site and the book of the same name really opened my mind.

Jesus Never Existed

Hi organon, thanks for your comments, particularly as you agree with me LOL!

Oh yes....the world's biggest, longest running, most dangerous scam! It obviously turned into its own thing as the centuries rolled by, but it is fascinating to ponder over the idea it was probably born as propaganda.

I am "bursting with my own bullshit" ie evidence for this, LOL, and I'm not the only one. Its very hard to document it all, because there is so much of it, and people, particularly Christians, need to do some mental gymnastics to even understand the arguments. For example how do you impress the Christian with the idea that peasant Jewish folk in first century Galilee hated the Roman world with a passion and continually revolted against it? One has to launch into a long spiel about history. The average Christian is likely to just "switch off".

The average person (which does not include 99% of the people on a forum like this), is turned off by complexity and nuance.

I am very familiar with the website you mentioned, it is very good. Also very good is
http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/home.htm

This whole argument is at the very heart of Christianity, so is fascinating! Let's keep sharing knowledge.
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14-09-2011, 02:52 AM
RE: Did Jesus Really Exist?
(14-09-2011 01:50 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  This whole argument is at the very heart of Christianity, so is fascinating! Let's keep sharing knowledge.

Thanks for the link.

Just to clarify things, I was Christened(baptised) into the Church of England. Religion was never discussed when I was growing up.

At the age of 12, after having had to attend church because I was a Boy Scout, I questioned the whole ritual and decided that there was no way I was going to believe the nonsense.

So for many many years, religion and a god was never part of my life, I just didn't believe the stuff.

Two years ago, after a discussion with a Christian(who said I was too nice to be an atheist, lol!), I decided to find out who this god character was, and where it came from.

Well, it was all so obvious that the whole thing was a monstrous scam. It actually got me quite angry. Christianity, well, I give credit for some positive actions, but on the whole it deceives and has wrecked so many lives, as evidenced, particularly among Americans, who have many extreme cults.

I could go on forever, but you are so obviously aware! Thanks for being here.!

"To think of what the world has suffered from superstition, from religion, from the worship of beast and stone and god, is
almost enough to make one insane."

Robert G. Ingersoll
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14-09-2011, 04:13 AM
RE: Did Jesus Really Exist?
(14-09-2011 02:52 AM)Organon Wrote:  
(14-09-2011 01:50 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  This whole argument is at the very heart of Christianity, so is fascinating! Let's keep sharing knowledge.

Thanks for the link.

Just to clarify things, I was Christened(baptised) into the Church of England. Religion was never discussed when I was growing up.

At the age of 12, after having had to attend church because I was a Boy Scout, I questioned the whole ritual and decided that there was no way I was going to believe the nonsense.


So for many many years, religion and a god was never part of my life, I just didn't believe the stuff.

Two years ago, after a discussion with a Christian(who said I was too nice to be an atheist, lol!), I decided to find out who this god character was, and where it came from.

Well, it was all so obvious that the whole thing was a monstrous scam. It actually got me quite angry. Christianity, well, I give credit for some positive actions, but on the whole it deceives and has wrecked so many lives, as evidenced, particularly among Americans, who have many extreme cults.

I could go on forever, but you are so obviously aware! Thanks for being here.!

Thankyou for sharing. It doesn't sound like you have been too damaged personally, yet you are enough of a humanist to be very concerned about your fellow man. That is very admirable.

I worry about my fellow man too. What can we do? A massive topic! We need to share information. I think it is reasonable to try to protect the children. It is also incumbent on us to protect the safety of the world and the rights of individuals from immoral Chrrstian politicians and other leaders.

But ...I digress. Please everyone keep commenting on the origin of Christianity.
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14-09-2011, 05:02 AM
RE: Did Jesus Really Exist?
(13-09-2011 08:56 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(13-09-2011 05:19 AM)nontheocrat Wrote:  Mark, that is fascinating, but remember that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I have read many claims such as James being the great teacher referred to in the Dead Sea scrolls and have read that many of Jesus' sayings were from them as well.

I definitely want to read your book once it is released; however, I'm afraid that your book will be considered too fantastic to be taken seriously.

Hi....thanks for your comments. I agree that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence to be accepted as the definitive truth.

Firstly, bear in mind, I am not claiming "THIS IS HOW IT IS". I can't do that, because the evidence is not good enough. No one knows for sure what happened all those years ago. I am saying there may be truth in this theory, and I do put some evidence forward for it. That evidence however is not rock solid.

I will also say that this story makes infinitely more sense than conventional Christianity.

You are probably familiar with "Q". "Q" was only discovered in the 1800's, yet it is very obvious once one becomes aware of it. The evidence for it was staring people in the face for 1500 years, and nobody recognised it. "My" ideas are not as original as Q, but they do make sense (in my opinion). My point is that if we are willing to keep our minds open, some ideas such as "mine" are not as extraordinary as they first appear.

PS I have fixed up the links in my previous post so they now work....they are worth a read.

Two comments: first, I would agree that your theories are immensely more likely to be true than "a man rose from the dead and ascended to heaven."

Second, what you have written makes total sense and I am unaware of any evidence that contradicts your theories, but I will be looking for any. If I find any problems I'll let you know.

OK, I have another comment after all... Good work! You've obviously worked long, hard and passionately and it shows. I can't wait to read it all!

“There is no sin except stupidity.” Oscar Wilde
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