Did Mary exist?
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11-12-2017, 05:32 AM
RE: Did Mary exist?
(11-12-2017 04:39 AM)underdogFTW Wrote:  I'd say she existed. Some dude named Yeshua was probably crucified. He must have had a mother. Mary in the NT is not very prominent. If you strip away all the virgin bullcrap there's not much really. All the buzz around Mary is due to the RC church. Seems like a very mundane thing to make up..

Exactly yeah. The mythicist position for Jesus, at least for me, is that there were too many people who could count as "Jesus", not too few. Narrowing down a mostly fictional, ridiculous story filled with contradictions to one particular dude is wishful thinking.

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11-12-2017, 05:49 AM
RE: Did Mary exist?
(10-12-2017 05:53 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I stumbled onto a debate going on in the Reddit 'debate a Christian' section titled "There was no Mary". The question being posed is if Jesus didn't exist, as many atheists think, then it follows that Mary didn't exist either.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAChristia...s_no_mary/

So, being kinda lazy and not very original today I thought I'd pose the same question here.

Popcorn

The super natural is fiction, so it doesn't matter. Girls/women don't give birth without a second set of DNA, and their is no such thing as a magic baby with super powers in any case.

FYI, the avoiding standard sex in mythology, purity motifs were common in antiquity. EVEN the earliest depictions of the alleged first Buddha had him being born out of the SIDE of Queen Maya, and funny that, even the first Buddha was also depicted as being traced back to royalty.

WHY? BECAUSE back then, in all of antiquity most humans lived under local ruling families, so their religions reflected the times they lived in.

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11-12-2017, 10:12 AM
RE: Did Mary exist?
(11-12-2017 05:08 AM)M. Linoge Wrote:  There is no reason to doubt the existence of a teenager, named Mary, giving birth to a child out of wedlock (especially in a story with three older men dropping off costly items afterwards).

Being the practical, logical person that I am I always wondered what Joseph and Mary did with the gold, franinsense and myrrh. The franinsense and myrrh were pretty valuable but the gold, depending on how much gold was in the gift basket, could have put Jesus through college and then some. Poor carpenter, my ass. Tongue

Also, they could have hired something more than a damned donkey to transport them around after he was born and certainly could have afforded to put Mary up in the Inn to recover from the birth for a couple of days instead sleeping with the shit and hay in the damned barn. What an tight ass Joseph must have been. But, ya know, people in myths stories lack real world logic don't they.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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11-12-2017, 11:02 AM
RE: Did Mary exist?
(10-12-2017 09:13 PM)brunumb Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 07:39 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  ... the Immaculate Conception (that she was conceived without sin)...

What did God do to have Mary conceived without sin and why couldn't he just do that for everyone instead of all that Jesus nonsense?

No fun in that. Angel

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11-12-2017, 03:45 PM
RE: Did Mary exist?
(10-12-2017 07:58 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 07:39 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  Oh Bucky...this may be the former Baptist in me talking, but why not mention how both the Assumption of Mary and the Immaculate Conception (that she was conceived without sin) are the only two Ex Cathedra statements made by the Papacy in its history, which make things "infallible" doctrine? Both of which were basically bowing to the demands of the widespread folk beliefs that already existed among the population. I really wasn't going to comment, until I saw this article in my feed, posted by a priest, about how during an exorcism, the Devil himself admitted to the Immaculate Conception...30 years before it was declared doctrine. Somehow, the article fails to mention that the Immaculate Conception was already a widespread belief at the time.

Well they *had* to cook up the Immaculate Conception, or Mary would not be good enough to be the mother of a god.

In all fairness, the Hebrew honorific "son of God" was accorded to many famous and righteous men, generals, politicians other famous people .. it never meant a "literal" filial relationship, as strict monotheism was the rule at the time of Jesus. The idea that anyone would have co-equal status with Yahweh was unthinkable.
The Hebrew "heaven" had many divine beings, but Yahweh was at the top....alone.
It is fascinating reading the council proceedings where they invent the "filioque procedit" clause in the (Nicaean) creed ... they knew how weird it seemed.

I really do need to read the council proceedings sometime. Also where did our Bulgarian Orthodox fellow go? We probably need to start arguing about the Filioque like our churches have since the Great Schism.
(10-12-2017 09:13 PM)brunumb Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 07:39 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  ... the Immaculate Conception (that she was conceived without sin)...

What did God do to have Mary conceived without sin and why couldn't he just do that for everyone instead of all that Jesus nonsense?

Beats me, the line I've often heard is, "He couldn't be expected to be passed Original Sin, therefore his mother had to be sinless." for part one of that, for part two Something Something Atonement.

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13-12-2017, 09:43 AM
RE: Did Mary exist?
(10-12-2017 09:16 PM)mordant Wrote:  There is no way to definitively determine whether Jesus was a single historical character or not (leaving aside whether he was also a miracle-working god-man). The preponderance of evidence as I see it is that he was either a composite character or an outright invention. The miraculous / fantastical mythos I reject out of hand.

Given that, pretty much any of the other characters described in the gospels are apt to be either fabricated, or had quite a lot of ... liberties taken in the telling.

I have discussed elsewhere / before my reasoning regarding the historicity of Jesus ... I can briefly lay it out again if you ask but otherwise I won't rehash it.

Pretty much this.

I now really laugh at the stressing of the "Liar, Lunatic, or Lord" CS Lewis argument back in church, because as Dilahunty said they always leave out the other L: Legend. I heard sermon after sermon why it has to be either Jesus was a big fat liar, bat shit crazy, or he was GAWD!
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13-12-2017, 11:51 AM
RE: Did Mary exist?
(11-12-2017 05:32 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Exactly yeah. The mythicist position for Jesus, at least for me, is that there were too many people who could count as "Jesus", not too few. Narrowing down a mostly fictional, ridiculous story filled with contradictions to one particular dude is wishful thinking.

Do you have more information on that? I've heard mythicist stances that state he started as a spiritual entity, and then was reflavored into a physical one, but I haven't heard this stance.
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13-12-2017, 12:29 PM
RE: Did Mary exist?
(13-12-2017 11:51 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(11-12-2017 05:32 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Exactly yeah. The mythicist position for Jesus, at least for me, is that there were too many people who could count as "Jesus", not too few. Narrowing down a mostly fictional, ridiculous story filled with contradictions to one particular dude is wishful thinking.

Do you have more information on that? I've heard mythicist stances that state he started as a spiritual entity, and then was reflavored into a physical one, but I haven't heard this stance.

Look up David Fitzgerald ... I think one or more of his YouTube talks, lists all the possible messiahs floating around at the time, including "a surfeit of Jesuses".

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13-12-2017, 12:44 PM (This post was last modified: 13-12-2017 12:48 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Did Mary exist?
(11-12-2017 04:39 AM)underdogFTW Wrote:  I'd say she existed. Some dude named Yeshua was probably crucified. He must have had a mother. Mary in the NT is not very prominent. If you strip away all the virgin bullcrap there's not much really. All the buzz around Mary is due to the RC church. Seems like a very mundane thing to make up..

They did embellish the "Mary" theme ... but historically it makes a lot of sense in terms of the "Mother Goddess" idea, (which Joseph Campbell talks about a lot, in his discussions / books, and interviews with Bill Moyers). In general the "Marianization" of the RC Church happened roughly at the same time generally as the rise of "the feminine ideal" (*courtly love* / chivalry) in Western Europe, (ie the Grail myths, search for the Holy Grail), and as such could be seen as important step forward in Western Culture, in a journey away from (*only*) male based values. Mary (Madonnas and babies) and knighthood/chivalry are inseparable (even if mythical). In the West, but there are examples of the feminine ideal ("Madonna statues) in other cultures, (such as ancient Egypt). There are a number of seated "Madonna and baby" statues from ancient Egypt.

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13-12-2017, 01:46 PM
RE: Did Mary exist?
(10-12-2017 05:53 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I stumbled onto a debate going on in the Reddit 'debate a Christian' section titled "There was no Mary". The question being posed is if Jesus didn't exist, as many atheists think, then it follows that Mary didn't exist either.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAChristia...s_no_mary/

So, being kinda lazy and not very original today I thought I'd pose the same question here.

Popcorn
A virgin birth mythology existed sure. But avoiding the birth canal and purity motifs were not an invention of Christianity. Even the mythology of the first Buddha had his mother QUEEN MAYA being told by the divine world she would give birth to a child that would bring wisdom to the world. Buddha's birth also avoided the birth canal and his mythology had him being born out of her side.

Back then in all of antiquity worldwide, the mortality rate was far higher, so back then giving birth upon the first period was much more of a pressure on humans back then. Plus men of all religions for the most part, saw females as property to barter between families. Pre arranged marriages are quiet common in every religion's history.

But do girls get knocked up by sky wizards with no second set of DNA? NOPE.

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