Did Mary exist?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
13-12-2017, 01:47 PM
RE: Did Mary exist?
(13-12-2017 12:44 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(11-12-2017 04:39 AM)underdogFTW Wrote:  I'd say she existed. Some dude named Yeshua was probably crucified. He must have had a mother. Mary in the NT is not very prominent. If you strip away all the virgin bullcrap there's not much really. All the buzz around Mary is due to the RC church. Seems like a very mundane thing to make up..

They did embellish the "Mary" theme ... but historically it makes a lot of sense in terms of the "Mother Goddess" idea, (which Joseph Campbell talks about a lot, in his discussions / books, and interviews with Bill Moyers). In general the "Marianization" of the RC Church happened roughly at the same time generally as the rise of "the feminine ideal" (*courtly love* / chivalry) in Western Europe, (ie the Grail myths, search for the Holy Grail), and as such could be seen as important step forward in Western Culture, in a journey away from (*only*) male based values. Mary (Madonnas and babies) and knighthood/chivalry are inseparable (even if mythical). In the West, but there are examples of the feminine ideal ("Madonna statues) in other cultures, (such as ancient Egypt). There are a number of seated "Madonna and baby" statues from ancient Egypt.

[Image: pakanuudenpatsaat.jpg]

The statue on the right is the godess, Mater Matuta.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mater_Matuta

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes dancefortwo's post
13-12-2017, 02:19 PM
RE: Did Mary exist?
(13-12-2017 12:29 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(13-12-2017 11:51 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Do you have more information on that? I've heard mythicist stances that state he started as a spiritual entity, and then was reflavored into a physical one, but I haven't heard this stance.

Look up David Fitzgerald ... I think one or more of his YouTube talks, lists all the possible messiahs floating around at the time, including "a surfeit of Jesuses".

Fitzgerald, btw, as humorous in person as he is on YouTube or in his books. He signed my copy of Vol.1 of Jesus Mything in Action with "Yours in Christ". And I can't remember the video title, but he does have one of his mythicism ones that goes into that and the Josephus forgeries and how Josephus even gave some random shepherd a few paragraphs, but "oh and he was the Christ" only gets a line, why does that seem fishy?

Need to think of a witty signature.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Shai Hulud's post
13-12-2017, 03:04 PM (This post was last modified: 13-12-2017 03:57 PM by Catharina de Aragon.)
RE: Did Mary exist?
I'd argue that the " male based values" was more of an economic+demographic thing than a religious one (initially). Granted, religion did help like crazy, but I suspect it was just the usual "moving close to those who have a bit of leverage and helping solidify it, and then growing enough by parasiting on that group to actually impose its values" than an imposition from the start. (I don't know much about it though, so please double check this)
...And c'mon! Mundane? Mary and the Saints are the best part of Catholicism! Not only because they are as pagan as one can get, but because they all come with a "I trust on ascended humans because, after looking around, I have the unspoken suspicion that God is either an idiot or a complete asshole" written on them.

And who can dislike the idea of telling on Jesus to his mom? Tongue

"Jesus of Jerusalem! Come here this instant! A lovely lady told me you want to send her very nice husband to hell! What is this nonsense?"
"But Mom! He earned it!"
"Really? What did the poor old guy do, mind you?"
"Well, he was kinda sining a lot, and stuff, and he was mean to me! And this one time..."
"Were they sorry?"
"Well...Yeah... Kind of, but..."
"Then that is it! "
"But they died without confession!"
"Oh, yeah? And whose's fault is that?Hm?"
"But Mom...!"
"No but Mom! Do I need to put you on my knee again!"
"Mom! I'm thirty three!WTF! I'm eternal"
"Yeah? Well, then you should start acting your age and stop picking on little kids!"

About jesus as a myth, have you guys checked Richard Carrier? I find him particularly compelling.

"Just kill them all. The Lord will sort them out" -Cesáreo de Heisterbach-
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Catharina de Aragon's post
13-12-2017, 04:23 PM
RE: Did Mary exist?
(13-12-2017 03:04 PM)Catharina de Aragon Wrote:  And who can dislike the idea of telling on Jesus to his mom? Tongue

About jesus as a myth, have you guys checked Richard Carrier? I find him particularly compelling.

We pray to St. Richard ... regularly. Thumbsup
Tongue

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein It is objectively immoral to kill innocent babies. Please stick to the guilty babies.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Bucky Ball's post
13-12-2017, 04:39 PM
RE: Did Mary exist?
(13-12-2017 03:04 PM)Catharina de Aragon Wrote:  I'd argue that the " male based values" was more of an economic+demographic thing than a religious one (initially). Granted, religion did help like crazy, but I suspect it was just the usual "moving close to those who have a bit of leverage and helping solidify it, and then growing enough by parasiting on that group to actually impose its values" than an imposition from the start. (I don't know much about it though, so please double check this)
...And c'mon! Mundane? Mary and the Saints are the best part of Catholicism! Not only because they are as pagan as one can get, but because they all come with a "I trust on ascended humans because, after looking around, I have the unspoken suspicion that God is either an idiot or a complete asshole" written on them.

And who can dislike the idea of telling on Jesus to his mom? Tongue

"Jesus of Jerusalem! Come here this instant! A lovely lady told me you want to send her very nice husband to hell! What is this nonsense?"
"But Mom! He earned it!"
"Really? What did the poor old guy do, mind you?"
"Well, he was kinda sining a lot, and stuff, and he was mean to me! And this one time..."
"Were they sorry?"
"Well...Yeah... Kind of, but..."
"Then that is it! "
"But they died without confession!"
"Oh, yeah? And whose's fault is that?Hm?"
"But Mom...!"
"No but Mom! Do I need to put you on my knee again!"
"Mom! I'm thirty three!WTF! I'm eternal"
"Yeah? Well, then you should start acting your age and stop picking on little kids!"

About jesus as a myth, have you guys checked Richard Carrier? I find him particularly compelling.

Yes. There are many videos of Carrier discussing the Jesus myth and his name comes up a lot on TTA. I lean more towards a legend rather than a myth but I don't argue against the myth either because it's no skin off my back if Jesus was mythical. I just know magical people don't exist, that is until stories about them are told and embellished over time. Then women magically have virgin births and their offspring walks on water. Rolleyes

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-12-2017, 11:15 PM
RE: Did Mary exist?
Yes, Carrier was the one who first opened my eyes to the glaring problems with Jesus.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-12-2017, 07:41 AM
RE: Did Mary exist?
(10-12-2017 05:53 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I stumbled onto a debate going on in the Reddit 'debate a Christian' section titled "There was no Mary". The question being posed is if Jesus didn't exist, as many atheists think, then it follows that Mary didn't exist either.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAChristia...s_no_mary/

So, being kinda lazy and not very original today I thought I'd pose the same question here.

Popcorn

I'll just posit that if she was a virgin, in that day and age, I don't think she was much to look at.
Just saying.
Finding 3 wise men and a virgin must have really been scraping the bottom of the barrel.

[Image: barfly_condenados_pelo_vicio.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-12-2017, 07:46 AM
RE: Did Mary exist?
(14-12-2017 07:41 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 05:53 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I stumbled onto a debate going on in the Reddit 'debate a Christian' section titled "There was no Mary". The question being posed is if Jesus didn't exist, as many atheists think, then it follows that Mary didn't exist either.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAChristia...s_no_mary/

So, being kinda lazy and not very original today I thought I'd pose the same question here.

Popcorn

I'll just posit that if she was a virgin, in that day and age, I don't think she was much to look at.
Just saying.
Finding 3 wise men and a virgin must have really been scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Sorry to have to correct you. But there were 4 Wise Men. The 4th brought fruitcake. They kicked him out.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein It is objectively immoral to kill innocent babies. Please stick to the guilty babies.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Bucky Ball's post
14-12-2017, 07:48 AM
RE: Did Mary exist?
(14-12-2017 07:46 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Sorry to have to correct you. But there were 4 Wise Men. The 4th brought fruitcake. They kicked him out.

So they really were wise!

[Image: barfly_condenados_pelo_vicio.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes BikerDude's post
14-12-2017, 08:35 AM
RE: Did Mary exist?
They can't be that wise if they let some dude write about how they were hanging around this 12 year old.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: