Did Mary exist?
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14-12-2017, 11:30 PM
RE: Did Mary exist?
Some Christian dogma claims that God may have fucked Mary in the ear. (Yes, I'm serious.)

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14-12-2017, 11:51 PM
RE: Did Mary exist?
From which branch of Christianity is that?0.0

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14-12-2017, 11:53 PM
RE: Did Mary exist?
(14-12-2017 11:30 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  Some Christian dogma claims that God may have fucked Mary in the ear. (Yes, I'm serious.)

Are you sure you didn't mean "rear" ? Laugh out load

Seriously I never ever heard that one ... but Google it, sure enough there are tons of references. FacepalmWeeping

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15-12-2017, 12:01 AM
RE: Did Mary exist?
Once again we have the usual names citing Carrier and ignoring moderate scholarship. Can it be proven Mary existed? Of course not, But Jesus, James, and Jude had to have a mother, and there's no conflicting historical evidence that she was ever believed to be anyone other than Mary. The case is certainly a lot stronger for her than it is for other people of antiquity, even Joseph Jesus's father if we imagine perhaps she had been widowed from the original father and that the Joseph mentioned in the gospels may have been her 2nd or 3rd husband.

I've said it many times before, if you take Carrier seriously you just look foolish. He doesn't have the proper academic credentials to be considered an expert in Christology or early Christianity, and he has little to no support from any other qualified academics.

And finally, of all the mythicist scholars including Carrier, more than half of them are Christians. That's easy to demonstrate, and no one has shown counter-evidence to it. So really, mythicism is a fringe Christian belief, not a belief born out of atheism - if you want to adopt it why not adopt other fringe Christian beliefs as well?

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15-12-2017, 12:07 AM
RE: Did Mary exist?
Quote:Possible mechanisms by which Mary could have remained virgo intacta have exercised the minds of theologians since the fourth century. During the Middle Ages, it was widely believed that Mary had conceived by being inseminated by the Holy Ghost through her ear*, a belief that resulted in female ears being treated with the utmost modesty for a time.

http://www.badnewsaboutchristianity.com/de0_mary.htm

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15-12-2017, 05:09 AM (This post was last modified: 15-12-2017 05:31 AM by OakTree500.)
RE: Did Mary exist?
(15-12-2017 12:07 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  
Quote:Possible mechanisms by which Mary could have remained virgo intacta have exercised the minds of theologians since the fourth century. During the Middle Ages, it was widely believed that Mary had conceived by being inseminated by the Holy Ghost through her ear*, a belief that resulted in female ears being treated with the utmost modesty for a time.

http://www.badnewsaboutchristianity.com/de0_mary.htm

Bloody hell.

How...like really HOW...in the fucks name of anything, could this really be a debate that's gone on for THAT long? Like, seriously.

"How did sh get pregnant if she didn't have sex"
"well...of course...you can't get pregnant without having sex. Even then that's if she wasn't just 'Made up' for the story of the bible"
"Don't be stupid...of course she's real. And if she's real, she must have gotten pregnant from god, because it says so right here"
"...Are you being serious right now?"
"Guards, take this man away, he's clearly insane to doubt the holy book"

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15-12-2017, 06:23 AM (This post was last modified: 15-12-2017 06:51 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Did Mary exist?
(15-12-2017 12:01 AM)Aractus Wrote:  I've said it many times before, if you take Carrier seriously you just look foolish. He doesn't have the proper academic credentials to be considered an expert in Christology or early Christianity, and he has little to no support from any other qualified academics.

Not half as foolish as you do. *As if* you are qualified to speak on who is or is not a "qualified academic". Laugh out load
He has FAR better credentials than you do.

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15-12-2017, 07:10 AM
RE: Did Mary exist?
Mary, mother of a king? King who was never crowned? Sure, she existed.

Here is the evidence:
[Image: 250px-Queenmaryformalportrait_edit3.jpg]

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15-12-2017, 08:12 AM
RE: Did Mary exist?
(15-12-2017 06:23 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Not half as foolish as you do. *As if* you are qualified to speak on who is or is not a "qualified academic". Laugh out load
He has FAR better credentials than you do.

No he doesn't. Carrier is a hack. Not a single other academic, not even another mythicist agrees with his views. And that's not surprising because many of the things that he puts forward are knowingly dishonest. For example, the nativity stories have nothing whatsoever to do with the remainder of the synoptic gospels, and most scholars agree they're entirely mythological. Carrier would have you believe that it leads credibility to the theory that Jesus was a myth, however it is easily demonstrated that there are several ancient historical people who have clearly mythological origin stories written about them. It's actually quite normal, and if there wasn't a mythical origin story for Jesus then that might raise concern. In other words, his readers/listeners/followers do not understand what is commonly found in ancient texts about other historical people, and he uses that ignorance to advance his argument.

Carrier is nothing but a completely dishonest liar and a fraud. Like I said before, why not believe every fringe Christian theory?? In fact why not just believe every Christian doctrine while you're at it? Again he's a fraud - he's never written an academic book, and yet he expects academic replies from the populist books that he's written. No one does that, if your book isn't academic it's never going to be discussed in peer review. Yet Carrier and his legion of ignorant followers wonder why no one responds in the academic literature to him.

If that's not enough there are several prominent New Testament scholars who have rebuffed him, and none whatsoever that defend him. Examples of rebuff:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/religionpro...books.html

There's a great example on that page regarding James vs Paul - something everyone can acknowledge, which is Pauline Theology was at odds with Petrine Theology which is what we believe James followed. Of course he could have had his own ideas separate to both of those, but you get the idea. It's very well know, and easily shown from the letters of Paul alone but also from the book of Acts and of course the gospels that James and Paul had quite different theologies, especially so if we believe James's beliefs were more in-line with Jesus's. I further agree at least to some extent with McGrath - one of the two had to be treacherous at least compared to the teachings that Jesus intended... but having said that I think it's Paul who drifted off into his own ideas more, not least of which because he never met Jesus and had never heard him preach. He only learned about him from others, as he says in his own letters.

Long story short, Carrier appeals to people with very limited knowledge of the bible or the ancient world in general.

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15-12-2017, 09:22 AM
RE: Did Mary exist?
(15-12-2017 05:09 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  
(15-12-2017 12:07 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  http://www.badnewsaboutchristianity.com/de0_mary.htm

Bloody hell.

How...like really HOW...in the fucks name of anything, could this really be a debate that's gone on for THAT long? Like, seriously.

"How did sh get pregnant if she didn't have sex"
"well...of course...you can't get pregnant without having sex. Even then that's if she wasn't just 'Made up' for the story of the bible"
"Don't be stupid...of course she's real. And if she's real, she must have gotten pregnant from god, because it says so right here"
"...Are you being serious right now?"
"Guards, take this man away, he's clearly insane to doubt the holy book"

I think I remember reading that a woman who was a virgin got pregnant and the doctors believe it was as a result of swimming in a pool with several other men. The seaman survived in the pool somehow and wiggled their way up her. I can't confirm this story though. I might google it and see if the story is still out there.

Googled it. Nevermind. Just like 2000 years ago, it's an urban myth.
https://www.snopes.com/girls-impregnated...g-in-pool/

Edit to add: If urban myths can pop up in the 21st century even with mass communication just think how easily myths could grow in the illiterate environment of 2000 years ago.

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He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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