Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
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29-01-2014, 07:17 PM
Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
I was in another heated argument with my religious parents last night. You'd think they'd just stop interacting with me. lol

Anyway, after a lengthy back-and-forth about following/not following the OT, I proclaimed the words written in Matthew 5:17, which state: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." This has long been my go-to verse to shoot down the argument that "we don't have to follow the old laws anymore; Jesus made it all ok", but Mom made an unexpected comeback. She said "Yes, and he DID fulfill it with his sacrifice. Now we don't have to follow it anymore."

I was a bit taken aback because I'd not heard that sort of response before, and I would need some time to think it over. So, instead, I deflected by arguing about her hypocrisy of hating on gays and refusing to get tattoos despite these things being part of the "old laws". Since then, I've thought about it and I'm not really sure if it makes sense or not, so I figured I'd pitch it to you guys.

If a christian fires back by claiming that Jesus DID fulfill the law with his sacrifice, what do you say? Does it make sense? Is his supposed sacrifice even relevant to the issue?

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29-01-2014, 07:25 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(29-01-2014 07:17 PM)Misanthropik Wrote:  I was in another heated argument with my religious parents last night. You'd think they'd just stop interacting with me. lol

Anyway, after a lengthy back-and-forth about following/not following the OT, I proclaimed the words written in Matthew 5:17, which state: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." This has long been my go-to verse to shoot down the argument that "we don't have to follow the old laws anymore; Jesus made it all ok", but Mom made an unexpected comeback. She said "Yes, and he DID fulfill it with his sacrifice. Now we don't have to follow it anymore."

I was a bit taken aback because I'd not heard that sort of response before, and I would need some time to think it over. So, instead, I deflected by arguing about her hypocrisy of hating on gays and refusing to get tattoos despite these things being part of the "old laws". Since then, I've thought about it and I'm not really sure if it makes sense or not, so I figured I'd pitch it to you guys.

If a christian fires back by claiming that Jesus DID fulfill the law with his sacrifice, what do you say? Does it make sense? Is his supposed sacrifice even relevant to the issue?

I've heard that argument as well. There are some Christian types who actually keep kosher, celebrate Jewish holidays alongside Christian ones, celebrate Shabbat, etc. Other Christians argue they're wrong for that reason.


Wind's in the east, a mist coming in
Like something is brewing and about to begin
Can't put my finger on what lies in store
but I feel what's to happen has happened before...


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29-01-2014, 07:28 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
It sounds like she is taking a little bit of liberty with the quote. She is drawing a conclusion that in my opinion is not supported elsewhere but then I am no biblical expert. Perhaps our resident experts can better answer your question.

On a side but completely related note, I cannot think it is healthy for you and your family to continue with heated discussions like this that no one can win. I'd ask them plainly to stop and you'd also have to not initiate these discussions as well.
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29-01-2014, 07:41 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
When she says That "Jesus did this" then the proper response is to say "prove it". I tell religious people that I'm not interested in what Jesus did until you can prove that he exists at which point you will always get some form of fallacious argument. End of discussion.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.
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29-01-2014, 07:42 PM (This post was last modified: 29-01-2014 07:45 PM by evenheathen.)
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
Doesn't Jesus go on to say in that same passage that not "one jot or tittle" will be changed until the end of the earth?

edit

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

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29-01-2014, 07:47 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(29-01-2014 07:42 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Doesn't Jesus go on to say in that same passage that not "one jot or tittle" will be changed until the end of the earth?

edit

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Yes, Matthew 5:18

Jesus Fulfills the Law
17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.…
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29-01-2014, 08:01 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
I don't see the point in arguing over personal interpretations of scripture. Consider

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29-01-2014, 08:05 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(29-01-2014 07:47 PM)Noelani Wrote:  
(29-01-2014 07:42 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Doesn't Jesus go on to say in that same passage that not "one jot or tittle" will be changed until the end of the earth?

edit

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Yes, Matthew 5:18

Jesus Fulfills the Law
17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.…

So the Christian type who keeps kosher and obeys all 6billion laws gets a greater share of heaven than one who just accepts jebus. Thumbsup wonder if they can justify selling their daughter into slavery or claiming the foreskin of an enemy as a trophy, the way some justiy denying medial treatment that could save their life? Consider


Wind's in the east, a mist coming in
Like something is brewing and about to begin
Can't put my finger on what lies in store
but I feel what's to happen has happened before...


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29-01-2014, 08:06 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
Aren't you like thirtysomething? Consider

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29-01-2014, 08:42 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(29-01-2014 08:01 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I don't see the point in arguing over personal interpretations of scripture. Consider

I know, but when such discussions/arguments arise, there is a need to argue within the context that the scripture exists and holds some measure of weight. After all, it's real to them. It's not real to me, but they can't understand that, so I have to approach the topic as though it's a real thing and then attempt to undermine it that way.

Through profound pain comes profound knowledge.
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