Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
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29-01-2014, 10:55 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(29-01-2014 07:17 PM)Misanthropik Wrote:  If a christian fires back by claiming that Jesus DID fulfill the law with his sacrifice, what do you say? Does it make sense? Is his supposed sacrifice even relevant to the issue?

IMHO, your mother's interpretation, is exactly the argument early Christians made, so in that sense, she's right.

That said, your first mistake is to get embroiled in discussions about the Bible. The Bible is just a collection of ancient religious texts, and nothing more. If you're not interested in it for purely historical reasons, then why do you even care what it says? It's ok just to flat out say you don't care what the Bible says, because you don't view it as anything more than a bunch of ancient texts.

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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29-01-2014, 11:00 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
No she did not.
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29-01-2014, 11:02 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(29-01-2014 08:55 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Seems kinda old to be arguing with Ma about religion.

I don't think so. Just because you argue with your parents over religious topics, or polical topics, or whatever, doesn't mean that you are desperate for their approval of your position. Families do this sort of thing, even if you're pushing 50 (like me).

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29-01-2014, 11:10 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(29-01-2014 11:00 PM)donotwant Wrote:  No she did not.

...why not?

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30-01-2014, 12:05 AM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(29-01-2014 11:02 PM)toadaly Wrote:  
(29-01-2014 08:55 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Seems kinda old to be arguing with Ma about religion.

I don't think so. Just because you argue with your parents over religious topics, or polical topics, or whatever, doesn't mean that you are desperate for their approval of your position. Families do this sort of thing, even if you're pushing 50 (like me).

It took me and my boss three conversations to conclude that discussions about drug or immigration policy were futile. That's the kind of thing adults do, realize the character and identity of another. If I had a parent still harping on this Bible shit, I'd disown it.

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30-01-2014, 12:21 AM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(30-01-2014 12:05 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  It took me and my boss three conversations to conclude that discussions about drug or immigration policy were futile. That's the kind of thing adults do, realize the character and identity of another. If I had a parent still harping on this Bible shit, I'd disown it.

...a boss isn't family. I wouldn't discuss any of this sort of thing with a boss, not even 1 conversation. I don't have a deep trust of my boss, just the superficail kind that he'll pay me what I'm owed. But family, yes. I know we can have these discussions over and over, and even if someone ends up with some hurt feelings occasionally, it won't change our relationship.

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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30-01-2014, 12:29 AM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(29-01-2014 10:55 PM)toadaly Wrote:  That said, your first mistake is to get embroiled in discussions about the Bible. The Bible is just a collection of ancient religious texts, and nothing more. If you're not interested in it for purely historical reasons, then why do you even care what it says? It's ok just to flat out say you don't care what the Bible says, because you don't view it as anything more than a bunch of ancient texts.

I think I have to disagree. But only because my deconversion experience all started with a pinprick sized hole in the reliability in the bible. It didn't take long after that for religion and I to part ways.
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30-01-2014, 12:41 AM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
By definition argument is sound only if it's valid and the premises are true.
Does it meet both criteria in your eyes? She can't even demonstrate truth of the premises.

As for validity how does resurrection fulfill the law of the old testament?
Define law and define fulfill.
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30-01-2014, 01:19 AM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
Miso, the argument your mother made is a common one. Most apologists use that passage as an excuse to not follow Jewish law. It's even been used to justify hatred toward the Jewish people since they're obviously doing it wrong.

To refute it, you could try to point out all the things the "messiah" didn't do -- the really big things.

When she retorts (as they usually do) that will be done when he comes again.

Now pull out the passage when he says he'll return within his own followers lifetime.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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30-01-2014, 02:19 AM (This post was last modified: 30-01-2014 02:28 AM by BlackMason.)
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
No no no, you're all wrong and I'm right (for the OP). I've dealt with this issue a number of times. A lot actually. I remember debating this one engineering guy in my college for hours going back and forth. I think sometimes I do it for the "oh fuck" look on their faces when I spit my lyrics. This is how you deal with it like a boss!!!

Anyway I believe that when Christ says he came to fulfill the law he meant that he came to LIVE by it. He came to subject himself to it's requirements in order for him to be the sinless lamb and the worthy sacrifice that he is believed to be. Remember what sin is:

1 John 3:4 KJV Wrote:Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So in order to be perfect he had to uphold the law. That's why he explicitly says he didn't come to remove the law or the prophets (Moses and crew).

The law still fully applies including Leviticus with it's diatery law.

8000 years before Jesus, the Egyptian god Horus said, "I am the way, the truth, the life."
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