Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
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30-01-2014, 02:54 AM
Re: RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(29-01-2014 07:17 PM)Misanthropik Wrote:  I was in another heated argument with my religious parents last night. You'd think they'd just stop interacting with me. lol

Anyway, after a lengthy back-and-forth about following/not following the OT, I proclaimed the words written in Matthew 5:17, which state: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." This has long been my go-to verse to shoot down the argument that "we don't have to follow the old laws anymore; Jesus made it all ok", but Mom made an unexpected comeback. She said "Yes, and he DID fulfill it with his sacrifice. Now we don't have to follow it anymore."

I was a bit taken aback because I'd not heard that sort of response before, and I would need some time to think it over. So, instead, I deflected by arguing about her hypocrisy of hating on gays and refusing to get tattoos despite these things being part of the "old laws". Since then, I've thought about it and I'm not really sure if it makes sense or not, so I figured I'd pitch it to you guys.

If a christian fires back by claiming that Jesus DID fulfill the law with his sacrifice, what do you say? Does it make sense? Is his supposed sacrifice even relevant to the issue?

It's an ad hoc argument but a Christian that is it would never understand that unless they had an extra brain surgically implanted.

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30-01-2014, 02:59 AM
Re: RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(29-01-2014 08:01 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I don't see the point in arguing over personal interpretations of scripture. Consider

Exactly, the bible hold no authority whatsoever so before it can be used it must be shown to be true. Trust me, a book written by bronze age sheep fuckers has no truth in it especially when it says pi equals three.

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30-01-2014, 04:40 AM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
Objection:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." so ..."we don't have to follow the old laws anymore; Jesus made it all ok",

Answer:

"Yes, and he DID fulfill it with his sacrifice. Now we don't have to follow it anymore."

Response:

"How did he fulfil the law with his sacrifice? What does that even mean? Why don't we have to follow them any more because of his sacrifice?"

There's all these vague concepts floating around Christianity which aren't properly defined. Like how Jesus died for our sins. (How exactly does that work again?)

Religious faith continues all the while people refuse to question certain founding assumptions that are inherently false. Always analyse the underlying assumptions. Get details on how the mechanisms work.

Remember, it's not Physics but 'metaphysics'. That means it only consists of high-level vague concepts.
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30-01-2014, 09:17 AM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(30-01-2014 12:29 AM)Noelani Wrote:  I think I have to disagree. But only because my deconversion experience all started with a pinprick sized hole in the reliability in the bible. It didn't take long after that for religion and I to part ways.

I suppose it depends. If he's hoping to deconvert mom, then maybe. But I got the impression his mom was picking the fight.

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30-01-2014, 09:22 AM (This post was last modified: 30-01-2014 09:41 AM by Full Circle.)
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(29-01-2014 10:35 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(29-01-2014 09:10 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  I can understand why Mis or anyone no matter what age would argue about such things with parents. I don't think there will be a happy ending but some parents insist on pushing their beliefs on their adult children. Been there.

That's because you're a kid.

(29-01-2014 09:34 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  My very first post was asking for advice on dealing with adult parents.

As opposed to what? Teen parents? Dodgy

That's becuase I'm their kid. It sounds like you meant this as some sort of slight HoC...say it ain't so.

Let's be clear about this, the entire topic of religion can be said to be childish, with boogymen and the like and yet here we all are talking about it, people the world over killing each other over it, and yes, adult children and their elderly (vs adult) parents having issues with it.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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30-01-2014, 09:30 AM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(29-01-2014 07:17 PM)Misanthropik Wrote:  I was in another heated argument with my religious parents last night. You'd think they'd just stop interacting with me. lol

Anyway, after a lengthy back-and-forth about following/not following the OT, I proclaimed the words written in Matthew 5:17, which state: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." This has long been my go-to verse to shoot down the argument that "we don't have to follow the old laws anymore; Jesus made it all ok", but Mom made an unexpected comeback. She said "Yes, and he DID fulfill it with his sacrifice. Now we don't have to follow it anymore."

I was a bit taken aback because I'd not heard that sort of response before, and I would need some time to think it over. So, instead, I deflected by arguing about her hypocrisy of hating on gays and refusing to get tattoos despite these things being part of the "old laws". Since then, I've thought about it and I'm not really sure if it makes sense or not, so I figured I'd pitch it to you guys.

If a christian fires back by claiming that Jesus DID fulfill the law with his sacrifice, what do you say? Does it make sense? Is his supposed sacrifice even relevant to the issue?
Assuming that you're Gentiles, she should simply note that Gentiles were not under the law in the first place.
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30-01-2014, 09:36 AM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(30-01-2014 09:22 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  That's becuase I'm their kid. It sounds like you meant this as some sort of slight HoC...say it ain't so.

Of course it is so because I'm an evil, malicious bastard. Evil_monster

The "teen parents" comment was snark. The "kid" comment was memory. I remember being a kid and thinking stuff like that was important. Now I am an adult (kinda) and it ain't.

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30-01-2014, 09:47 AM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(29-01-2014 07:17 PM)Misanthropik Wrote:  If a christian fires back by claiming that Jesus DID fulfill the law with his sacrifice, what do you say?

Ideally, you don't get into these sorts of debates. The fact that there are as many denominations/sects in existence illustrates that people will cherry pick the portions of the Bible they want to use. You will prove nothing wrong other than "the Bible says lots of things".


(29-01-2014 07:17 PM)Misanthropik Wrote:  Does it make sense? Is his supposed sacrifice even relevant to the issue?

It makes as much sense as most of the other cherry-picked interpretations. If you want to get into things like "making sense", start with the assumptions about whether or not God even exists and whether or not the Bible is a reliable source of information (especially based on what we know about how it was written and organized). Anything else is putting the cart way ahead of the horse.

Don't expect your mom to make these types of assumptions or be fine with that conversation, but rather, realize how differently you two are approaching this. It makes most conversations next to impossible, unless they are prefaced with a giant "Yeah, but...".


(29-01-2014 07:47 PM)Noelani Wrote:  Jesus Fulfills the Law
17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.…

And this is why it cracks me up when they complain that Atheists take all the bad portions of the Bible out of context: the Christians take a lot of the good parts out of context.
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30-01-2014, 10:02 AM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(29-01-2014 07:17 PM)Misanthropik Wrote:  Anyway, after a lengthy back-and-forth about following/not following the OT, I proclaimed the words written in Matthew 5:17, which state: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
The wording of that verse makes it clear that "abolish" and "fulfill" are two different things, thus the word "but" in between them. Fulfilling does not abolish. So it is erroneous when your mother claims that Jesus fulfilled by his sacrifice and that means the old law no longer needs to be followed. According to Jesus, the old law wasn't abolished, so then it still stands.

She is also wrong that Jesus fulfilled the old laws. Laws can't be fulfilled in a way that makes them no longer applicable. For example, how could Jesus' death make "thou shalt not kill" no longer applicable? It's a continuous concept with no end. What Jesus supposedly fulfilled were prophecies, not the old laws.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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30-01-2014, 10:14 AM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(30-01-2014 09:36 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(30-01-2014 09:22 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  That's becuase I'm their kid. It sounds like you meant this as some sort of slight HoC...say it ain't so.

Of course it is so because I'm an evil, malicious bastard. Evil_monster

The "teen parents" comment was snark. The "kid" comment was memory. I remember being a kid and thinking stuff like that was important. Now I am an adult (kinda) and it ain't.

Evil_monster I don't believe it.

I don't want it to be important and yet they, my elderly parents, think it is THE most imprtant thing in the world. As long as I'm not ready to disown them or stop caring about them I have to deal with the nonsense and so does Mis and so do countless others but I think you know that Mr. Snarky Pants.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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