Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
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30-01-2014, 10:36 AM (This post was last modified: 30-01-2014 10:41 AM by Raptor Jesus.)
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
I got into this thread late, so I’m just going to end up repeating with others have already stated, with one addition. To me the response comes down to four things.

1) Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, not abolish it.

2) After they claim he did fulfill the law by his sacrifice, point out that the bible in no place says this is what happened. You cannot just decide this is what is happening because it’s convent for you to do, or anyone could do that with any part of the bible. A lot of Christians are big on asking for “proof” of where it says this or says that in the bible. The stronger they rely on that, the easier it is to point out that nowhere in the bible does it say the thing they are saying it says.

3) Point out that Jesus himself does say, “I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law”. That’s pretty effing clear I’d say.

4) But the biggest point to make has nothing to do with the bible per se. Ask her, if she believes you’ve ever done anything bad enough that she herself would douse you with gasoline and set you on fire, put you out before you succumb and die, take you to the hospital to recover, then doing again, repeating that procedure for the rest of your life as a punishment? Ask her to really think about that. Is there any justification, based on who you are as a person, as her son, she could make for it being morally right for her, or a stranger, or the government, or anyone to do such a horrendous thing to you? Make her see the immorality of it, and that you clearly are not a bad enough person to deserve such punishment. And get her to see that she is more moral than her own “god” who would extend such pains and torments on you for eternity, for the offence of a sentence, “I believe” versus, “I don’t believe”.

Because really in the end, it does come down to this. It matters not one iota what the bible says, if what it says is morally reprehensible.

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30-01-2014, 10:56 AM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(30-01-2014 10:02 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(29-01-2014 07:17 PM)Misanthropik Wrote:  Anyway, after a lengthy back-and-forth about following/not following the OT, I proclaimed the words written in Matthew 5:17, which state: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
The wording of that verse makes it clear that "abolish" and "fulfill" are two different things, thus the word "but" in between them. Fulfilling does not abolish. So it is erroneous when your mother claims that Jesus fulfilled by his sacrifice and that means the old law no longer needs to be followed. According to Jesus, the old law wasn't abolished, so then it still stands.

She is also wrong that Jesus fulfilled the old laws. Laws can't be fulfilled in a way that makes them no longer applicable. For example, how could Jesus' death make "thou shalt not kill" no longer applicable? It's a continuous concept with no end. What Jesus supposedly fulfilled were prophecies, not the old laws.



It's yet another christian "slight of hand" to distance themselves from the "batshit crazy" stuff in the old testament


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30-01-2014, 11:00 AM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
Tokutter, What's that red arrow pointing to in your avatar picture?

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30-01-2014, 11:07 AM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(30-01-2014 11:00 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Tokutter, What's that red arrow pointing to in your avatar picture?

What arrow?????............oh yeah i see it now............how did I miss that????........how comes nobody else ever mentioned it????......Tongue

I have no idea raptor
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30-01-2014, 11:18 AM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
Oh, I thought it was probably some crazy ass shit going on, and it's pointing out that you wouldn't even see it because you'd be too distracted, for obvious reasons. But now I want to know what it is. But sadly this is not the tread for that.

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30-01-2014, 11:30 AM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(30-01-2014 11:00 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Tokutter, What's that red arrow pointing to in your avatar picture?

'Toronto's famous CN tower' I guess it's kinda a meme about what draws the attention.

And ya know, if ya use chrome and right-click on an image, there's this 'search google for this image' feature, which allows you to know stuff and look intelligent. Smartass

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30-01-2014, 11:40 AM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(30-01-2014 11:30 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  And ya know, if ya use chrome and right-click on an image, there's this 'search google for this image' feature, which allows you to know stuff and look intelligent. Smartass

On a work computer. Loads of stuff is blocked on here.

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30-01-2014, 11:43 AM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(30-01-2014 11:40 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  
(30-01-2014 11:30 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  And ya know, if ya use chrome and right-click on an image, there's this 'search google for this image' feature, which allows you to know stuff and look intelligent. Smartass

On a work computer. Loads of stuff is blocked on here.

Oh! So they're paying you to fuck off on an atheist forum? Evil_monster

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30-01-2014, 01:23 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(29-01-2014 07:17 PM)Misanthropik Wrote:  I was in another heated argument with my religious parents last night. You'd think they'd just stop interacting with me. lol

Anyway, after a lengthy back-and-forth about following/not following the OT, I proclaimed the words written in Matthew 5:17, which state: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." This has long been my go-to verse to shoot down the argument that "we don't have to follow the old laws anymore; Jesus made it all ok", but Mom made an unexpected comeback. She said "Yes, and he DID fulfill it with his sacrifice. Now we don't have to follow it anymore."

I was a bit taken aback because I'd not heard that sort of response before, and I would need some time to think it over. So, instead, I deflected by arguing about her hypocrisy of hating on gays and refusing to get tattoos despite these things being part of the "old laws". Since then, I've thought about it and I'm not really sure if it makes sense or not, so I figured I'd pitch it to you guys.

If a christian fires back by claiming that Jesus DID fulfill the law with his sacrifice, what do you say? Does it make sense? Is his supposed sacrifice even relevant to the issue?

You should've asked about the commandments, since you don't have to follow them is it all right to kill, steal...

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30-01-2014, 01:40 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(30-01-2014 01:23 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  You should've asked about the commandments, since you don't have to follow them is it all right to kill, steal...

Well you'll still get into heaven if you do at least. So jesus is saying that it's permissible. Thumbsup

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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