Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
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30-01-2014, 01:41 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(30-01-2014 01:23 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  You should've asked about the commandments, since you don't have to follow them is it all right to kill, steal...

Handwaved with the "love your neighbor as yourself" thing.

This is similar to why they still condemn homosexuality: Paul said something about it in the NT, so it's not just an OT law to them. Now, why Jesus never thought to mention this during the gospels, but chose to give a revelation directly to Paul is beyond the rest of us.
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30-01-2014, 02:41 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(30-01-2014 11:43 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(30-01-2014 11:40 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  On a work computer. Loads of stuff is blocked on here.

Oh! So they're paying you to fuck off on an atheist forum? Evil_monster

These are my "breaks"...

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30-01-2014, 02:53 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
You know what why don't you go and ask her how exactly did jesus fulfill the laws of the old testament.
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30-01-2014, 02:57 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(30-01-2014 02:41 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  
(30-01-2014 11:43 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Oh! So they're paying you to fuck off on an atheist forum? Evil_monster

These are my "breaks"...

THERE ARE NO BREAKS IN CORPORATE AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111!!! lolz

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30-01-2014, 07:33 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(29-01-2014 07:17 PM)Misanthropik Wrote:  I was in another heated argument with my religious parents last night. You'd think they'd just stop interacting with me. lol

Anyway, after a lengthy back-and-forth about following/not following the OT, I proclaimed the words written in Matthew 5:17, which state: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." This has long been my go-to verse to shoot down the argument that "we don't have to follow the old laws anymore; Jesus made it all ok", but Mom made an unexpected comeback. She said "Yes, and he DID fulfill it with his sacrifice. Now we don't have to follow it anymore."

I was a bit taken aback because I'd not heard that sort of response before, and I would need some time to think it over. So, instead, I deflected by arguing about her hypocrisy of hating on gays and refusing to get tattoos despite these things being part of the "old laws". Since then, I've thought about it and I'm not really sure if it makes sense or not, so I figured I'd pitch it to you guys.

If a christian fires back by claiming that Jesus DID fulfill the law with his sacrifice, what do you say? Does it make sense? Is his supposed sacrifice even relevant to the issue?

Your mom is partially correct pending her context she could be totally correct.

Wickedness existed before "The Law" was even handed down. For example. God caused the Flood of Noah. He also destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Neither of those places were under the law. When Kane killed Abel Kane was punished.

If it requires "The Law" in order for anything to be labeled wicked then God would have had no authority to punish any of the above people.

"The Law" is broken down in to several areas. Area's that outlined Wickedness, Justice, and Charity/Benevolence/Mercy. The other areas were implementation of some Jewish Festivals, Customs/cleaning ceremonies/animal sacrifices, Modification of some other customs. Some of the things were nothing new to the Jews or for anyone else in the surrounding area and some were.

When Jesus died on the cross and rose again he eliminated for all time any and all cleansing ceremonies, food restrictions, and sacrifices/punishment for sin. What reminded in place and which was reaffirmed by the New Testament was the what God saw was Wickedness and Injustice and a lack of charitable behavior etc.

This is why Christians don't have to stone adulterous to death or kill murderers because Jesus has already died for people who do that. This does not mean as a community we can't put people to death or lock them up. But it is no longer a requirement by God.

Both the Old and New Testament remain in effect. Only people who accept Jesus are under the new Testament. Jews are under the Old Testament unless they accept Jesus. Everybody else is lost. A person can accept Old Testament Judaisms but the problem with that is that there is no High Priest so no sacrifices are being done which renders the Old Testament stuff moot.

As a follower of Christ you shouldn't want to practice any kind of wickedness. So you don't need the Ten Commandments because instilled within you is a desire, because you Love God and God Loves you to want to do the right things.
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31-01-2014, 12:58 AM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
A lot of great answers, everyone. Some people pointed out some things I should have realized on the spot, but she caught me off-guard and I had a brain-fart. This is mostly to do with the "fulfill" vs. "abolish" thing. I'm not sure why I didn't see that at the time.

Also, Anidominus: Negs. I don't bother with anyone who's in the red. Wink Sorry, bro.

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31-01-2014, 03:47 AM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(30-01-2014 07:33 PM)anidominus Wrote:  "The Law" is broken down in to several areas. Area's that outlined Wickedness, Justice, and Charity/Benevolence/Mercy. The other areas were implementation of some Jewish Festivals, Customs/cleaning ceremonies/animal sacrifices, Modification of some other customs. Some of the things were nothing new to the Jews or for anyone else in the surrounding area and some were.

When Jesus died on the cross and rose again he eliminated for all time any and all cleansing ceremonies, food restrictions, and sacrifices/punishment for sin. What reminded in place and which was reaffirmed by the New Testament was the what God saw was Wickedness and Injustice and a lack of charitable behavior etc.

This is why Christians don't have to stone adulterous to death or kill murderers because Jesus has already died for people who do that. This does not mean as a community we can't put people to death or lock them up. But it is no longer a requirement by God.

Both the Old and New Testament remain in effect. Only people who accept Jesus are under the new Testament. Jews are under the Old Testament unless they accept Jesus. Everybody else is lost. A person can accept Old Testament Judaisms but the problem with that is that there is no High Priest so no sacrifices are being done which renders the Old Testament stuff moot.

As a follower of Christ you shouldn't want to practice any kind of wickedness. So you don't need the Ten Commandments because instilled within you is a desire, because you Love God and God Loves you to want to do the right things.

Do they have lawyers in Heaven? It sounds like they're needed up there. I'd love to see the documents where this is all explicitly spelled out by God's lawyers.

Couldn't God have just sent down some new tablets of stone rather than become personified as a human being to say that he is eliminating all cleansing ceremonies, food restrictions, and sacrifices/punishment for sin?

Although you say at the end of your post how you don't need explicit laws like the ten commandments because personal interpretation is enough now. Wasn't it enough before? What changed? And does this mean that it is not Christian of governments to impose their own laws?

How does Jesus dieing mean that we don't have to stone adulterers or kill murderers? Was a physical mechanism involved or was it symbolic? If physical then please explain the mechanisms involved, and if symbolic, I don't get it.
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31-01-2014, 08:02 AM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(31-01-2014 03:47 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Do they have lawyers in Heaven? It sounds like they're needed up there. I'd love to see the documents where this is all explicitly spelled out by God's lawyers.

Back in Job, Satan was one of them. Of course, back then (the first chronological reference to Satan in the Bible), he was referred to as "the satan" (lower case 's'), which basically meant "the accuser" or "the adversary". He was part of a celestial council and was actively arguing a case with God. He didn't get upgraded to Satan (capital 'S') until much later in the Old Testament. He didn't become The Deceiver, the very powerful arch enemy of God until the gospels in New Testament.

Apparently, God really hates lawyers, or something. Tongue

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31-01-2014, 01:54 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(31-01-2014 03:47 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Do they have lawyers in Heaven? It sounds like they're needed up there. I'd love to see the documents where this is all explicitly spelled out by God's lawyers.
I have no idea if they have "Lawyers" in heaven or not.

Quote:Couldn't God have just sent down some new tablets of stone rather than become personified as a human being to say that he is eliminating all cleansing ceremonies, food restrictions, and sacrifices/punishment for sin?

Just as there are laws, statues, etc that govern the kingdoms of this earth, there are Laws, Statues, Customs, etc that govern the Kingdom of Heaven to which Yahweh is the eternal King. I have no information regarding the complete personality of Yahweh or why he chooses certain methods of doing things over others.
Quote:Although you say at the end of your post how you don't need explicit laws like the ten commandments because personal interpretation is enough now.
Didn't say that. My personal interpretation has nothing to do with it. Perhaps this is a case where we just interpret things differently. I'll try to understand based what I think you meant, but not as you said it.

Quote:Wasn't it enough before? What changed?
This becomes complicated but I'll explain it best I can. This explanation is very general as I don't have time to do thoroughly nor do I know all the ends and outs.

When God created the earth he gave Dominion of the planet to Adam. Adam was in complete and total charge of the Earth. Adam was like the governor of the planet and have full legal authority. Of course, all Governors are subject to the power of the King. I have no idea of the "legal" arrangement between Adam and God which if I knew would explain other things that I'm sure if you are genuinely interested in this you're going to want to know.

When Adam ate the fruit and placed his responsibility on to Eve by blaming her (instead of repenting), Eve gained this governorship. So you could argue that women did rule the world for awhile. However, Eve handed the governorship over to the serpent when she blamed the serpent as she did not accept any responsibility either. The serpent did not have anyone to blame but himself and therefore it was the serpent who came away with the governorship of earth.

God is a keeper of his word. Even if keeping his word means bad things happen he will keep his word anyway. God has always maintained his word to the governor of this world regardless who that governor was. I want to say again, I do not know the arrangement. Whatever it was, it precipitated things occurring the way they did. However, God had no intention of leaving the governorship of this world to Satan.

[I am leaving out the story about Abraham but needless to say Abraham had Faith in God and his Faith made him right with God, much like having Faith in Jesus does the same thing today. Abraham was not under the law, but he was still under the governorship of Satan.]

Through the Jewish people God gave man an opportunity to live up to his Holy Standard. The Jewish people accepted this responsibility. In exchange for the "Blessings" of God, the Jews agreed to live the life God had commanded. If the Jews failed to carry out their end of the bargain, they had also agreed to the punishments.

God wanted the Jewish people to be a holy people and a people that would promote God's greatness throughout the world which did not know God. If the Jews did not behave a certain way God would look bad so they're behavior was very important to him.

The covenant with the Jews also did something else. It gave God direct access to the earth again as the Jewish people were literally creating the "Kingdom of Heaven" here on Earth. They did this through the sacrifices and the building of the temple. Anyone could become a Jew so long as they were willing to follow the Old testament laws and Obey God, much like anyone today can accept Jesus. Ruth nor Rahab were Jews, but both of them accepted Yahweh as their God and both of them are in the blood-line of Jesus. (either by Mary or by belief that joseph was his father. I think it was through Mary though. don't have time to look it up)

This did not sit well with Satan. His goal from then on out was to destroy the Jewish people. He knew if God regained governorship over the planet his reign here would end. Around this time the prophets began to speak in code regarding the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus or the messiah.

Needless to say, the Jewish people never became what they thought they could become. However, it did enable God to create an environment where he himself could come down and complete what the Jews thought they could do themselves. This begat the birth of Jesus who was ever as bit a man and God. He was divine because his father was God himself. (yes sigh.. like Hercules in a way)

But he was also fully human and susceptible to all the issues humans had because his mother was Mary. In a sense Jesus had one foot in heaven and the other foot on earth thus bridging earth and heaven. However, Jesus had to live a Godly life and sacrificed. Sin can only be paid for with Life. Sin destroys life and therefore Life is the only thing than can be shed to cleans it. Therefore when Jesus died on the cross all the sin of the world at that time, before that time, and even in the future was laid upon him. His blood was clean enough, because of his perfection, to cleans every one else's sin stained blood.

He descended spiritually to the place of the dead where he completed our punishment. However, this place could not hold him as he was indeed perfect. He also gained the right to governorship over the earth. If you want "access" to the "Government" of Jesus he required that you accept his sacrifice and recognize his authority over your life.

So, looking at what Jesus is he, to a certain degree, is not new, but he is a more complete way of doing the same old thing.

Ark was like Jesus, anyone could have gotten on the boat.
The Sodomites were told God was going to destroy the city, yet none left.
No one was forced by God to stay in Jericho.
Nineveh was offered a chance to repent, they did, and were not destroyed.

People are always given "Jesus Like" opportunity to leave or escape God's punishment.

Quote:And does this mean that it is not Christian of governments to impose their own laws?

Before the Law of God man had already established certain laws and customs for his own survival. We do the same thing today. If we want to do life in prison instead of Death that's fine. We only executed 39 people last year (2013) so its not like it happens often. We can punish each other anyway we wish so long as the punishment does not exceed the crime Plus a reasonable penalty.

Quote:How does Jesus dieing mean that we don't have to stone adulterers or kill murderers? Was a physical mechanism involved or was it symbolic? If physical then please explain the mechanisms involved, and if symbolic, I don't get it.

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31-01-2014, 02:16 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(31-01-2014 01:54 PM)anidominus Wrote:  God wanted the Jewish people to be a holy people and a people that would promote God's greatness throughout the world which did not know God. If the Jews did not behave a certain way God would look bad so they're behavior was very important to him.

The covenant with the Jews also did something else. It gave God direct access to the earth again as the Jewish people were literally creating the "Kingdom of Heaven" here on Earth. They did this through the sacrifices and the building of the temple. Anyone could become a Jew so long as they were willing to follow the Old testament laws and Obey God, much like anyone today can accept Jesus. Ruth nor Rahab were Jews, but both of them accepted Yahweh as their God and both of them are in the blood-line of Jesus. (either by Mary or by belief that joseph was his father. I think it was through Mary though. don't have time to look it up)

This did not sit well with Satan. His goal from then on out was to destroy the Jewish people. He knew if God regained governorship over the planet his reign here would end. Around this time the prophets began to speak in code regarding the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus or the messiah.

Needless to say, the Jewish people never became what they thought they could become. However, it did enable God to create an environment where he himself could come down and complete what the Jews thought they could do themselves. This begat the birth of Jesus who was ever as bit a man and God. He was divine because his father was God himself. (yes sigh.. like Hercules in a way)

But he was also fully human and susceptible to all the issues humans had because his mother was Mary. In a sense Jesus had one foot in heaven and the other foot on earth thus bridging earth and heaven. However, Jesus had to live a Godly life and sacrificed. Sin can only be paid for with Life. Sin destroys life and therefore Life is the only thing than can be shed to cleans it. Therefore when Jesus died on the cross all the sin of the world at that time, before that time, and even in the future was laid upon him. His blood was clean enough, because of his perfection, to cleans every one else's sin stained blood.

He descended spiritually to the place of the dead where he completed our punishment. However, this place could not hold him as he was indeed perfect. He also gained the right to governorship over the earth. If you want "access" to the "Government" of Jesus he required that you accept his sacrifice and recognize his authority over your life.

Where are you getting all this from? Is this in any particular story in the Bible? If so, which book(s) is it in?
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