Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
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31-01-2014, 02:34 PM
Re: RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(31-01-2014 02:16 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(31-01-2014 01:54 PM)anidominus Wrote:  God wanted the Jewish people to be a holy people and a people that would promote God's greatness throughout the world which did not know God. If the Jews did not behave a certain way God would look bad so they're behavior was very important to him.

The covenant with the Jews also did something else. It gave God direct access to the earth again as the Jewish people were literally creating the "Kingdom of Heaven" here on Earth. They did this through the sacrifices and the building of the temple. Anyone could become a Jew so long as they were willing to follow the Old testament laws and Obey God, much like anyone today can accept Jesus. Ruth nor Rahab were Jews, but both of them accepted Yahweh as their God and both of them are in the blood-line of Jesus. (either by Mary or by belief that joseph was his father. I think it was through Mary though. don't have time to look it up)

This did not sit well with Satan. His goal from then on out was to destroy the Jewish people. He knew if God regained governorship over the planet his reign here would end. Around this time the prophets began to speak in code regarding the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus or the messiah.

Needless to say, the Jewish people never became what they thought they could become. However, it did enable God to create an environment where he himself could come down and complete what the Jews thought they could do themselves. This begat the birth of Jesus who was ever as bit a man and God. He was divine because his father was God himself. (yes sigh.. like Hercules in a way)

But he was also fully human and susceptible to all the issues humans had because his mother was Mary. In a sense Jesus had one foot in heaven and the other foot on earth thus bridging earth and heaven. However, Jesus had to live a Godly life and sacrificed. Sin can only be paid for with Life. Sin destroys life and therefore Life is the only thing than can be shed to cleans it. Therefore when Jesus died on the cross all the sin of the world at that time, before that time, and even in the future was laid upon him. His blood was clean enough, because of his perfection, to cleans every one else's sin stained blood.

He descended spiritually to the place of the dead where he completed our punishment. However, this place could not hold him as he was indeed perfect. He also gained the right to governorship over the earth. If you want "access" to the "Government" of Jesus he required that you accept his sacrifice and recognize his authority over your life.

Where are you getting all this from? Is this in any particular story in the Bible? If so, which book(s) is it in?

It's not in the Bible. Both old and new testaments are in that wall of text. It's more of a sermon/bible study based on an interpretation.

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31-01-2014, 02:38 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
The concept your mom presented is essentially the basis of Pauline Christianity - that Jesus' death was the ultimate and final blood sacrifice for sin that put an end to the Law and ushered in the age of grace.

That said, it doesn't make the religion true - it's just part of the mythology. It's like understanding some detail of ancient Greek religion; interesting, but still myth. If you no longer believe the bible to be the word of god, then the interpretations and nuances of the religious beliefs really don't matter. Jews, for instance, would strongly disagree with this premise. It may be her reason/explanation for why she doesn't have to follow the rules in two thirds of her holy book, but that doesn't make it true.
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31-01-2014, 03:18 PM (This post was last modified: 31-01-2014 03:24 PM by JAH.)
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
anidominous, If you are going to make such long and complicated replies based on you interpretations of the NT would you at least quote some verse to back yourself up.

Your preaching reminds me of when I started turning from christianity some 50+ years ago. Why does some preacher have to explain to me what god means. Should its meaning not be clear from its holy book.

It should be noted that I inadvertently started a parallel conversation in another thread.
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31-01-2014, 03:21 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(31-01-2014 03:18 PM)JAH Wrote:  ...Why does some preacher have to explain to me what god means. Should its meaning not be clear from his holy book.

Because "God's" not a very good writer.

...
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31-01-2014, 03:25 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(31-01-2014 03:21 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  
(31-01-2014 03:18 PM)JAH Wrote:  ...Why does some preacher have to explain to me what god means. Should its meaning not be clear from his holy book.

Because "God's" not a very good writer.

Nonono he's the *best* writer. We're just sinful and suck so bad that we *deserve* all the bad shit that happens in our lives, and part of that suckery is not being able to understand the writings. 'Cos the LAWD said that he will close the eyes of the unbeliever so that we can more perfectly fuck off to hell.

Why these theistic types think that we're gonna convert after hearing such drivel is beyond me...

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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31-01-2014, 05:30 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(31-01-2014 03:25 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(31-01-2014 03:21 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Because "God's" not a very good writer.

'Cos the LAWD said that he will close the eyes of the unbeliever so that we can more perfectly fuck off to hell.

My mom said this to me on one occasion as well. I asked her why I'm not seeing the "truth" in her beliefs and she said "Because Satan is blinding the eye of the wicked one." All I could do was roll my eyes.

You know they have completely divorced themselves from reason when they decide that any deviation from the faith on your part only proves that the faith is true.

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31-01-2014, 05:53 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(31-01-2014 02:16 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(31-01-2014 01:54 PM)anidominus Wrote:  God wanted the Jewish people to be a holy people and a people that would promote God's greatness throughout the world which did not know God. If the Jews did not behave a certain way God would look bad so they're behavior was very important to him.

The covenant with the Jews also did something else. It gave God direct access to the earth again as the Jewish people were literally creating the "Kingdom of Heaven" here on Earth. They did this through the sacrifices and the building of the temple. Anyone could become a Jew so long as they were willing to follow the Old testament laws and Obey God, much like anyone today can accept Jesus. Ruth nor Rahab were Jews, but both of them accepted Yahweh as their God and both of them are in the blood-line of Jesus. (either by Mary or by belief that joseph was his father. I think it was through Mary though. don't have time to look it up)

This did not sit well with Satan. His goal from then on out was to destroy the Jewish people. He knew if God regained governorship over the planet his reign here would end. Around this time the prophets began to speak in code regarding the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus or the messiah.

Needless to say, the Jewish people never became what they thought they could become. However, it did enable God to create an environment where he himself could come down and complete what the Jews thought they could do themselves. This begat the birth of Jesus who was ever as bit a man and God. He was divine because his father was God himself. (yes sigh.. like Hercules in a way)

But he was also fully human and susceptible to all the issues humans had because his mother was Mary. In a sense Jesus had one foot in heaven and the other foot on earth thus bridging earth and heaven. However, Jesus had to live a Godly life and sacrificed. Sin can only be paid for with Life. Sin destroys life and therefore Life is the only thing than can be shed to cleans it. Therefore when Jesus died on the cross all the sin of the world at that time, before that time, and even in the future was laid upon him. His blood was clean enough, because of his perfection, to cleans every one else's sin stained blood.

He descended spiritually to the place of the dead where he completed our punishment. However, this place could not hold him as he was indeed perfect. He also gained the right to governorship over the earth. If you want "access" to the "Government" of Jesus he required that you accept his sacrifice and recognize his authority over your life.

Where are you getting all this from? Is this in any particular story in the Bible? If so, which book(s) is it in?

None of this is written plainly out in scripture. I probably have well over 1,000 hours of combined Biblical translation, symbols interpretation, etc etc instruction. This is an accumulation of everything I've learned about scripture.

Points of interest are these...

Gen 1:28 - God gives dominion over the earth to Adam.
Luke 4:5 - Satan is offering the Kingdom of the world to Jesus, he says they were given to him. Who gave them to him? God would not have given him anything and the only other person to have dominion was Adam.

There are other things but those are just examples at how we can extrapolate how Satan ended up with something that originally belong to Adam.
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31-01-2014, 05:57 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(31-01-2014 05:53 PM)anidominus Wrote:  ... I probably have well over 1,000 hours of combined Biblical translation, symbols interpretation, etc etc instruction....

Oh okay. I didn't know that. Now that I do I'll just believe and accept whatever you say.

...
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31-01-2014, 06:10 PM
Re: RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(31-01-2014 05:57 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  
(31-01-2014 05:53 PM)anidominus Wrote:  ... I probably have well over 1,000 hours of combined Biblical translation, symbols interpretation, etc etc instruction....

Oh okay. I didn't know that. Now that I do I'll just believe and accept whatever you say.

That was waste of 1000 hours. How much good could have been done with 1000 hours of volunteer work in his community?

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31-01-2014, 07:55 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(31-01-2014 05:53 PM)anidominus Wrote:  None of this is written plainly out in scripture. I probably have well over 1,000 hours of combined Biblical translation, symbols interpretation, etc etc instruction. This is an accumulation of everything I've learned about scripture.

Points of interest are these...

Gen 1:28 - God gives dominion over the earth to Adam.
Luke 4:5 - Satan is offering the Kingdom of the world to Jesus, he says they were given to him. Who gave them to him? God would not have given him anything and the only other person to have dominion was Adam.

There are other things but those are just examples at how we can extrapolate how Satan ended up with something that originally belong to Adam.

That makes more sense. I didn't remember ever hearing that one, so I was wondering where it came from.

That being said, my answer to why Satan ended up with it has a lot more to do with the evolution of Satan in the Bible. He goes from being an accuser/adversary who seems to work more with God than against, to someone who talks people into doing bad things, to a stumbling block to Christianity, to the ultimate villain/Deceiver who has incredible power over this world. "Satan" started out as a title (the satan) before it became a proper noun.

So, I'd assume Satan ended up with that dominion due to authorial license as Christianity moved away from having a flawed (yet powerful) god to focus more on a black-and-white cosmic battle between good and evil. If you read the Old Testament without Christian blinders, you'll notice the latter theme is distinctly lacking. "Life and death" back then actually meant life and death, not "heaven and hell".
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