Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
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31-01-2014, 09:09 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
Adinomus is right that you have to distinguish between moral, civil and ceremonial law. Paul is clear that after Jesus the ceremonial and civil laws are no longer in effect. This is what much of Galatians is about, as well as Hebrews. These annulled laws would include those about food, sacrifice, penalties for crime, etc. These were in place to preserve the Jewish nation until Jesus could come as the final sacrifice to which all these laws pointed.

What remains in place is the moral law, which would include homosexuality. So your mom's response is consistent with mainstream Christian theology. I think the best response to this is to point out the gross immorality of god's action in both the old and new testaments, which makes the idea of him as a moral lawgiver absurd. Christians have yet to devise a decent response to this argument. It's so bad that WLC will squirm and point to another author's book when asked about it.

When they say you have no objective source for morality, you can point out that your evolved genetically-derived sense of justice is clearly superior to their twisted objective bible-derived source. Besides, god constantly applies situational ethics in the bible, which is how he justifies actions like genocide ( had to protect Israel).
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31-01-2014, 11:01 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(31-01-2014 06:10 PM)Phil Hill Wrote:  
(31-01-2014 05:57 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Oh okay. I didn't know that. Now that I do I'll just believe and accept whatever you say.

That was waste of 1000 hours. How much good could have been done with 1000 hours of volunteer work in his community?

...or an extra 1000 hours of watching porn for that matter.

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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01-02-2014, 06:57 AM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(31-01-2014 09:09 PM)freetoreason Wrote:  Adinomus is right that you have to distinguish between moral, civil and ceremonial law. Paul is clear that after Jesus the ceremonial and civil laws are no longer in effect. This is what much of Galatians is about, as well as Hebrews. These annulled laws would include those about food, sacrifice, penalties for crime, etc. These were in place to preserve the Jewish nation until Jesus could come as the final sacrifice to which all these laws pointed.

What remains in place is the moral law, which would include homosexuality.

It's funny that the same word, "abomination" is used to discuss eating shellfish (which is now okay) and gay male sex (which, apparently, is not).
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01-02-2014, 11:44 AM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(31-01-2014 05:57 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  
(31-01-2014 05:53 PM)anidominus Wrote:  ... I probably have well over 1,000 hours of combined Biblical translation, symbols interpretation, etc etc instruction....

Oh okay. I didn't know that. Now that I do I'll just believe and accept whatever you say.

Fine with me even though that's not why I said that. I simply said that to let the reader understand that I didn't simply go to chapter and verse and quote scripture.

I couldn't care less if you believe all of what I say or none of it. Once you've heard it, you've heard it. I can't make you believe or keep you from believing.
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01-02-2014, 12:21 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(31-01-2014 07:55 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(31-01-2014 05:53 PM)anidominus Wrote:  None of this is written plainly out in scripture. I probably have well over 1,000 hours of combined Biblical translation, symbols interpretation, etc etc instruction. This is an accumulation of everything I've learned about scripture.

Points of interest are these...

Gen 1:28 - God gives dominion over the earth to Adam.
Luke 4:5 - Satan is offering the Kingdom of the world to Jesus, he says they were given to him. Who gave them to him? God would not have given him anything and the only other person to have dominion was Adam.

There are other things but those are just examples at how we can extrapolate how Satan ended up with something that originally belong to Adam.

That makes more sense. I didn't remember ever hearing that one, so I was wondering where it came from.

That being said, my answer to why Satan ended up with it has a lot more to do with the evolution of Satan in the Bible. He goes from being an accuser/adversary who seems to work more with God than against, to someone who talks people into doing bad things, to a stumbling block to Christianity, to the ultimate villain/Deceiver who has incredible power over this world. "Satan" started out as a title (the satan) before it became a proper noun.

So, I'd assume Satan ended up with that dominion due to authorial license as Christianity moved away from having a flawed (yet powerful) god to focus more on a black-and-white cosmic battle between good and evil. If you read the Old Testament without Christian blinders, you'll notice the latter theme is distinctly lacking. "Life and death" back then actually meant life and death, not "heaven and hell".

I can only speculate as to why Satan is mentioned when/how/why. And that speculation is simply this... Satan ultimately doesn't matter. He is zero competition for God and he only has power over us that we let him.

With that being said, he does have power. He's influential and he does have a kind of legal authority over the lost. If you're not under the governorship of Jesus, then you are under the governorship of Satan. I want to say again, I don't understand fully that legal relationship because its never been outlined. We know much more about the arrangement between Man and Jesus.

In the Old Testament the focus was on "The Law" and developing the Jewish people in to a people who could receive "The Christ". Satan has no part in that. His story is not really relevant at this point.

In the New Testament, the stakes are much higher. Jesus Christ is the last "Ark". All who accept him will be saved, the others will join Satan in Hell, which is the Kingdom created by God for all who follow Satan (originally just for the Angels who followed Satan), it is a place devoid of God presence and Love, which essentially is what Satan wanted and to a degree what Atheist think they have today but will have when Christ returns and the World is Judged.

Satan is an entity of power he just isn't any match for God. And as his power erodes, just like what has happened with other dictators when they see their power threatened there will be great tribulation and war. There has always been war, but the one coming will be even bigger than WWII. We have probably already seen the beginning of it but as I know all to well, every generation thinks they are living in the last days.

So, this is why I think he is mentioned more often in the New testament and in particular he is all over Revelations. Revelations is like the 3rd act of a play. Its when all the crap goes down. its when the biggest explosions happen etc. Satan has a hate for man-kind unparalleled than anything you've seen. Comparatively speaking, Hitler loved the Jews compared to what Satan thinks of Humans.

I can only speculate as to this hatred. From my knowledge of Satan, or Lucifer as he was known in Heaven, was a worship leader of sorts. He received the praises of Angels and then he himself was to Praise God. But apparently he decided to keep the praise for himself. Why?

I speculate that he was quite comfortable with his position. But Adams creation, the Son of God, threw a wrench in what any Angel at that time understood about God. Angels may have had exclusive worship of God but Adams creation may have meant some of them felt as though they were no longer good enough. This may have caused many hurt feelings.

Also, Adam, in a sense, became their master. The Angels still had power over Adam as God gave them much like a King's Servant has over the King's children but it was essentially Adam who was an heir to the "Throne of Heaven". Since God is eternal he would never sit in the throne but he was legally an heir.

This did not sit will with Lucifer who rebelled against God and who was then cast down to Earth to "suffer" direct governorship from Adam. So now, he had no authority whatsoever over Adam but based on legal arrangements he saw how he could take the governorship for himself.
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01-02-2014, 12:41 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(01-02-2014 06:57 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(31-01-2014 09:09 PM)freetoreason Wrote:  Adinomus is right that you have to distinguish between moral, civil and ceremonial law. Paul is clear that after Jesus the ceremonial and civil laws are no longer in effect. This is what much of Galatians is about, as well as Hebrews. These annulled laws would include those about food, sacrifice, penalties for crime, etc. These were in place to preserve the Jewish nation until Jesus could come as the final sacrifice to which all these laws pointed.

What remains in place is the moral law, which would include homosexuality.

It's funny that the same word, "abomination" is used to discuss eating shellfish (which is now okay) and gay male sex (which, apparently, is not).

I don't know if you are correct about the word abomination being used for eating shell-fish but regardless.

There are two thins here... the punishment, and the behavior.

If I remember correctly, the act of eating something like pig made you unclean. Possibility because those are not good foods for you to eat because they are unhealthy. God wanted the Jews to be Healthy as possible so he commanded a certain diet for them.

Today, it may not be a good idea to eat Pig or shellfish. However, God allows us to eat it. I don't think its a sin to smoke crack. I do think its stupid. Those are external things we bring in to our bodies, but it has nothing to do with the proper raising of family or how we treat God or one another.

Homosexuality on the other hand is a matter of the heart. It is internal. God man woman and man for romance, not men and men or women or women. It is a direct violation of the order of things. A twisted manifestation.

When it comes to morality, there is one question you always start with...

1) Did God give us this morality or
2) Did we learn it through trial and error or
3) Did someone institute it for political reasons.

If God gave us the behavior or we learned it through trial and error, then no matter where you go in the world, regardless of faith, you will see similar behavior. For example, I don't know of any place in the world where "murder" or killing someone for any reason you want, is legal. Likewise, I don't know of any place in the world where it is accepted that people can lie about anything and its ok. Likewise if its just about politics you will see pockets of behavior. This is why every people on earth have their own unique look as far as style of clothing, buildings etc.

Homosexuality has been around for 5000+ years. How many nations that you know of, can say they have embraced it for the last 2-3 hundred years who can tell us how well its worked out for them? I could ask the same question about single-parenting. How many?

I have had zero people tell me of such a nation. What does this mean? Either God has embedded within us homosexuality is wrong and we have to fight ourselves to accept it. We have learned it is wrong from Trial and Error (it has been tried before and failed to the point we know longer know the name of the culture that tried it), or its never been accepted/embraced before but the Bible tells you that isn't the case Via Sodom and Gomorrah and the Benjamite city.
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01-02-2014, 12:44 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(31-01-2014 09:09 PM)freetoreason Wrote:  Adinomus is right that you have to distinguish between moral, civil and ceremonial law. Paul is clear that after Jesus the ceremonial and civil laws are no longer in effect. This is what much of Galatians is about, as well as Hebrews. These annulled laws would include those about food, sacrifice, penalties for crime, etc. These were in place to preserve the Jewish nation until Jesus could come as the final sacrifice to which all these laws pointed.

What remains in place is the moral law, which would include homosexuality. So your mom's response is consistent with mainstream Christian theology. I think the best response to this is to point out the gross immorality of god's action in both the old and new testaments, which makes the idea of him as a moral lawgiver absurd. Christians have yet to devise a decent response to this argument. It's so bad that WLC will squirm and point to another author's book when asked about it.

When they say you have no objective source for morality, you can point out that your evolved genetically-derived sense of justice is clearly superior to their twisted objective bible-derived source. Besides, god constantly applies situational ethics in the bible, which is how he justifies actions like genocide ( had to protect Israel).

The reason you haven't found a "decent response" to "this argument" is because you refuse to accept the Sovereign Authority of God. He has every right to punish people who break his laws. He has every right to give mercy to some and not others. It happens all the time, even today in the US. Some people get executed some get life, others cut deals.
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01-02-2014, 12:47 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(01-02-2014 12:41 PM)anidominus Wrote:  When it comes to morality, there is one question you always start with...

1) Did God give us this morality or
2) Did we learn it through trial and error or
3) Did someone institute it for political reasons.

This is why we can't have nice things... Dodgy

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01-02-2014, 12:55 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(01-02-2014 12:21 PM)anidominus Wrote:  I can only speculate as to why Satan is mentioned when/how/why. And that speculation is simply this... Satan ultimately doesn't matter. He is zero competition for God and he only has power over us that we let him.

With that being said, he does have power. He's influential and he does have a kind of legal authority over the lost. If you're not under the governorship of Jesus, then you are under the governorship of Satan. I want to say again, I don't understand fully that legal relationship because its never been outlined. We know much more about the arrangement between Man and Jesus.

Yabut, if Satan's power is much less than Jesus', and we can opt out of Jesus' governance if we want, then why can't we just opt out of Satan's governance? I don't see where this is a problem.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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01-02-2014, 01:15 PM
RE: Did Mom Make a Sound Argument???
(01-02-2014 12:21 PM)anidominus Wrote:  From my knowledge of Satan, or Lucifer as he was known in Heaven, was a worship leader of sorts. He received the praises of Angels and then he himself was to Praise God. But apparently he decided to keep the praise for himself. Why?

Do you have a citation for this? Again, it's something I've never heard. I know a lot of your post was speculation, but this part looks as though you believe it to have another source.

It's another thing I've never heard, so I'm wondering if it comes from Dante's Inferno or, perhaps from Paradise Lost. Both are basically Bible fan-fiction, but you'd be surprised how many things from those books get incorporated into your average Christian's world-view.
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