Did Roger or Francis Bacon Really Discover The Scientific Method ?
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07-12-2011, 12:28 PM
RE: Did Roger or Francis Bacon Really Discover The Scientific Method ?
(07-12-2011 12:18 PM)AbdelZ Wrote:  Hi, guys :

I replyed to some reactions here above , & very politely too as i always do , i tried to clean up this topic , couldn't because it was locked , i tried to put the cleaned up topic in this page , all that was erased , so

Talking about tolerance in this site

So, out of protest against all that , i am leaving this form

All the best , thanks , appreciate

AbdelZ, your repost wasn't erased, your code is still all jacked up in your post. You have either opened tags that were not closed or close tags that were not opened or something like that. If you edit your post or quote it you'll see that all of the data is still there, it's just very poorly formatted and the forum system doesn't know what to do with it.

You're assuming censorship but there is nothing of the sort happening.
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08-12-2011, 09:24 AM
RE: Did Roger or Francis Bacon Really Discover The Scientific Method ?
I have to say I steongly agree with the idea that the scientific method has been in existence for a long time, it was simply codified by Bacon et al. Makingbup claims that the Muslims invented the scientific process itself seems no more valid to me than the idea that Hindus invented how to walk.

Also, because of how backwards and ignorant most of modern Islam is, I have no respect for its practitioners. Get out of the 15th century and we can talk - give equal rights to women and homosexuals, stop using violence to attempt to spread your mental disease and stop arresting people for violating inane religious laws. Shariah has no place in a civilized society. Honor killings absolutely despicable and a black mark on the already sordid record of Islam. [End rant]

Better without God, and happier too.
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08-12-2011, 12:54 PM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2011 01:15 PM by AbdelZ.)
RE: Did Roger or Francis Bacon Really Discover The Scientific Method ?
(08-12-2011 09:24 AM)Azaraith Wrote:  I have to say I steongly agree with the idea that the scientific method has been in existence for a long time, it was simply codified by Bacon et al. Makingbup claims that the Muslims invented the scientific process itself seems no more valid to me than the idea that Hindus invented how to walk.

Also, because of how backwards and ignorant most of modern Islam is, I have no respect for its practitioners. Get out of the 15th century and we can talk - give equal rights to women and homosexuals, stop using violence to attempt to spread your mental disease and stop arresting people for violating inane religious laws. Shariah has no place in a civilized society. Honor killings absolutely despicable and a black mark on the already sordid record of Islam. [End rant]


You gotta try to read the content of the topic first & read my previous posts on the matter while you are at it instead of jumping to conclusions ,this irrational silly contra-productive way , without even thinking , letting your own psychological defenses ,denials , western brainwash & emotions determin your words :

you has just shown that you are the opposite of the claim of this site " The thinking atheist "

Ignorance is no argument : none of the Bacons had anything to do with discovering the scientific method ; Can't you read ? Roger Bacon was even a student of muslim scientists in Spain ....an understatement

Well, ignorance as shown here by yourself is no ...argument : your ignorance of islam , of the history of islam , of the laws of history in relation to the rise & decline of civilizations, your ignorance of modern time in relation to the legacy of western imperialism in muslim countries , your ignorance of the fact that this is indeed the time of muslims' decline , not islam's , your ignorance of the well proven islamic origin of the scientific method (overwhelming evidence : just read those books on the matter of both Sir Dr. philosopher & poet Muhammad Iqbal & Briffault ) , your ignorance of the fact that all those "universalism, truth, objectivity " & other claims of modernism were already sent to Alice's wonderland by post-modernism for example ,among other ..............


Your obvious ignorance of the fact that the west is just a part of the world, not the world, your ignorance of the fact that there is not only one single view of the world, man , the universe ...., not one single thought or one single kindda ethics in the world : that the western one line of thought since Descartes at least is just one among many in this world

See how post-modernism for example calls for relativism, pluralism even outside of western thought & outside of liberal democracy , because neither western thought nor western ethics , let alone liberal democracy, to mention just these , are 'universal, true , objective ' in the absolute sense

See how post-modernism for example has been trying to combine western individualism & Oriental holism while islam is already individualistic & holistic at the same time

See how even objectivity does not exist , not even at the level of exact sciences , let alone alsewhere


You have been talking about the rights of guys ,women ...for example , about ethics in that regard

Well, rights or ethics are not a matter of facts , they are a matter of moral ethical & other references

Western materialistic modern ethics or materialistic monistic a-moral ethics for example that declare that neither good nor bad do exist as such can be traced back to Spinoza's ethics or monism : what have those ethics to do with science or with facts then ?

You cannot prove that the one or other culture , ethics are better than the other

You cannot even approach other cultures "objectively " via your own culture you always carry with you deep in your very soul , let alone that you can approach religious ethics via the secular or atheistic ones , so

I think that western thought gotta get out of its imperialistic racist paternalistic Eurocentrism in order to learn from the rest of the world as post-modernism for example does :

western thought, ethics , cultures that had learned from previous cultures , ethics , thought to get to this point in this modern time , the latter that's no synonymous of progress in the absolute sense

we should try to combine western thought with the Oriental one in order to come up with a universal thought , ethics : western thought , ethics cannot be the only reference to that obviously , while each camp must have the right & liberty to keep its own views of life , the world, the universe & ethics ; we all make part of this world

Read this great book on the matter :

"The Geography of Thought " or how westerners & Asians think differently & why ? by culture psychologist Richard E.Nisbett







(07-12-2011 12:28 PM)kineo Wrote:  
(07-12-2011 12:18 PM)AbdelZ Wrote:  Hi, guys :

I replyed to some reactions here above , & very politely too as i always do , i tried to clean up this topic , couldn't because it was locked , i tried to put the cleaned up topic in this page , all that was erased , so

Talking about tolerance in this site

So, out of protest against all that , i am leaving this form

All the best , thanks , appreciate

AbdelZ, your repost wasn't erased, your code is still all jacked up in your post. You have either opened tags that were not closed or close tags that were not opened or something like that. If you edit your post or quote it you'll see that all of the data is still there, it's just very poorly formatted and the forum system doesn't know what to do with it.

You're assuming censorship but there is nothing of the sort happening.

Thanks , i thought i made a mistake afterwards , my sincere apologies , appreciate

It's just that i do not have enough time , so , i just navigate here quickly due to my tight time -frame

But i wanna edit this topic in order to clean it up for these guys , i see no edit button : it is locked if i am not mistaken again

Thanks , appreciate your rectification


Did Roger or Francis Bacon Really Discover The Scientific Method ?

Source: Briffault's "Making of Humanity "

Here u go :

Note that the author mentions the "Arabic civilization or Arabic science " instead of saying the islamic ones : Arabs were in the minority concerning the latters


Excerpt from "The Reconstruction of Religious Thought " by Sir Dr.Muhammad Iqbal u can download for free here below , quoting Briffault : chapter 5 : The spirit of muslim culture :

(....Europe has been rather slow to recognise the islamic origin of her scientific method .But full recognition of the fact has at last come .]Let me quote one or two passages from Briffault's making of Humanity :



Quote :

"....It was under their succesors at that Oxford school that Roger Bacon learned Arabic & Arabic science .Neither Roger Bacon nor his later namesake has any title to be credited with having introduced the experimental method.Roger Bacon was no more than one of the apostles of muslim science & method to christian Europe, and he never wearied of declaring that a knowledge of Arabic & Arabian science was for his contemporaries the only way to true knowledge.Discussions as to who was the originator of the experimental method are part of the colossal misrepresentation of the origins of European civilization. The experimental method of the Arabs was by Bacon's time widespread & eagerly cultivated throughout Europe . -pp.200-01

Science is the most momentous contribution of Arab civilization to the modern world ,but its fruits were slow in ripening .Not until after long Moorish culture had sunk back into darkness did the giant to which it had given birth rise in his might .It was not science which brought Europe back to life .

Other and manifold influences from the civilization of islam communicated its first glow to European life.

For although there is not a single aspect of European growth in which the decisive influence of the islamic culture is not traceable,nowhere is it so clear& momentous as in the genesis of that power which constitutes the paramount distinctive force of the modern world and the supreme force of its victory -natural science & the scientific spirit.

The debt of our science to that of the Arabs does not consist in startling discoveries or revolutionary theories, science owes a great deal more to Arab culture , it owes its existence .

The ancient world was , as we saw , pre-scientific .

The astronomy & mathematics of the Greek were a foreign importation never thoroughly acclimatized in Greek culture .The Greeks systematized, generalized & theorized , but the patient ways of investigation , the accumulation of positive knowledge ,the minute methods of science,detailed & prolonged observation, experimental inquiry ,were altogether alien to the Greek temperament .

Only in Hellinistic Alexandria was any approach to scientific work conducted in the ancient classical world, what we call science arose in Europe as a result of a new spirit of inquiry , of new methods of investigation ,of the method of experiment ,observation, measurement, of the development of mathematics in a form unknown to the Greeks .
That spirit & those methods were introduced to the European world by the Arabs -p.191-end quote

The first important point to note about the spirit of muslim culture then is that ,for purposes of knowledge.it fixes its gaze on the concrete, the finite .

It is further clear that the birth of the method of observation and experiment in islam was due not to a compromise with Greek thought but to a prolonged intellectual warfare with it .In fact ,the influence of the Greeks who,as Briffault says ,were interested chiefly in theory ,not in fact ,tended rather to obscure the muslims ' vision of the Qur'an ,and for at least two centuries kept the practical Arab temperament from asserting itself & coming to its own .I want therefore to definitely eradicate the misunderstanding that Greek thought , in any way, determined the character of muslim culture.....)


Source : The Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam by Sir Dr. Muhammad Iqbal , chapter 5 : the spirit of muslim culture :

Download the book for free :


http://www.maroc.nl/forums/nieuws-de-dag...ost4903943





Further more , see in the above mentioned book of Iqbal how muslims were the first ever to discover [B]evolution
itself & much much more


see this 3-part docu on the matter too while u are at it , presented by a an Iraki-British scientist on the field :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPlaS_wGz...r_embedded"]Science and Islam: Part 1: The Language of Science - YouTube


http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL5238...PlaS_wGzx8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0FSgNE4L...r_embedded"]Science and Islam: Part 2: The Empire of Reason - YouTube



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LjdnKE_i...r_embedded"]Science and Islam: part 3: The Power of Doubt - YouTube

Amazing he , don't you think ?



(28-11-2011 02:38 PM)AbdelZ Wrote:  
DNA;4907485 Wrote:[SIZE="4"][B][B][B][B][B][B]Did Roger or Francis Bacon Really Discover The Scientific Method ? [/B][/B][/B][/B][/B][/B][/SIZE]

Source: Briffault's "Making of Humanity "

Here u go :

Note that the author mentions the "Arabic civilization or Arabic science " instead of saying the islamic ones : Arabs were in the minority concerning the latters


Excerpt from "The Reconstruction of Religious Thought " by Sir Dr.Muhammad Iqbal u can download for free here below , quoting Briffault : chapter 5 : The spirit of muslim culture :

(....Europe has been rather slow to recognise the islamic origin of her scientific method .But full recognition of the fact has at last come .[COLOR="Green"][COLOR="Green"][COLOR="Green"][COLOR="Green"][COLOR="Green"]Let me quote one or two passages from Briffault's making of Humanity : [/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR]



Quote :

"....[COLOR="Purple"][COLOR="Purple"][COLOR="Purple"][COLOR="Purple"][COLOR="Purple"]It was under their succesors at that Oxford school that Roger Bacon learned Arabic & Arabic science .Neither Roger Bacon nor his later namesake has any title to be credited with having introduced the experimental method.Roger Bacon was no more than one of the apostles of muslim science & method to christian Europe, and he never wearied of declaring that a knowledge of Arabic & Arabian science was for his contemporaries the only way to true knowledge.Discussions as to who was the originator of the experimental method [/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR="Red"]are part of the colossal misrepresentation of the origins of European civilization. The experimental method of the Arabs was by Bacon's time widespread & eagerly cultivated throughout Europe . -pp.200-01-[/COLOR]

Science is the most momentous contribution of Arab civilization to the modern world ,but its fruits were slow in ripening .Not until after long Moorish culture had sunk back into darkness did the giant to which it had given birth rise in his might .It was not science which brought Europe back to life .

Other and manifold influences from the civilization of islam communicated its first glow to European life.

[COLOR="Red"]For although there is not a single aspect of European growth in which the decisive influence of the islamic culture is not traceable,nowhere is it so clear& momentous as in the genesis of that power which constitutes the paramount distinctive force of the modern world and the supreme force of its victory -natural science & the scientific spirit.[/COLOR]

The debt of our science to that of the Arabs [COLOR="Red"]does not consist in startling discoveries or revolutionary theories, science owes a great deal more to Arab culture , it owes its existence . [/COLOR]

The ancient world was , as we saw , [COLOR="Red"]pre-scientific .[/COLOR]

The astronomy & mathematics of the Greek were a foreign importation never thoroughly acclimatized in Greek culture .The Greeks systematized, generalized & theorized , but the patient ways of investigation , the accumulation of positive knowledge ,the minute methods of science,detailed & prolonged observation, experimental inquiry ,were altogether alien to the Greek temperament .

Only in Hellinistic Alexandria was any approach to scientific work conducted in the ancient classical world, [COLOR="black"][COLOR="Green"] what we call science arose in Europe as a result of a new spirit of inquiry , of new methods of investigation ,of the method of experiment ,observation, measurement, of the development of mathematics in a form unknown to the Greeks .[/COLOR]

[/COLOR][B][B][B]That spirit & those methods were introduced to the European world by the Arabs -p.191-[/B][/B][/B]" end quote

The first important point to note about the spirit of muslim culture then is that ,for purposes of knowledge,it fixes its gaze on the concrete, the finite .

It is further clear that the birth of the method of observation and experiment in islam was due not to a compromise with Greek thought but to a prolonged intellectual warfare with it .In fact ,the influence of the Greeks who,as Briffault says ,were interested chiefly in theory ,not in fact ,tended rather to obscure the muslims ' vision of the Qur'an ,and for at least two centuries kept the practical Arab temperament from asserting itself & coming to its own .I want therefore to definitely eradicate the misunderstanding that Greek thought , in any way, determined the character of muslim culture.....)


Source : The Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam by Sir Dr. Muhammad Iqbal , chapter 5 : the spirit of muslim culture :

Download the book for free :


http://www.maroc.nl/forums/nieuws-de-dag...ost4903943





Further more , see in the above mentioned book of Iqbal how muslims were the first ever to discover evolution itself & much much more


see this 3-part docu on the matter too while u are at it , presented by a an Iraki-British scientist on the field :

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPlaS_wGzx8&feature=BFa&list=PL523826BEF4A1EF7B&lf=player_embedded"]Science and Islam: Part 1: The Language of Science - YouTube[/url]


http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL5238...PlaS_wGzx8


[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0FSgNE4Lxc&feature=BFa&list=PL523826BEF4A1EF7B&lf=player_embedded"]Science and Islam: Part 2: The Empire of Reason - YouTube[/url]



[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LjdnKE_i9E&feature=BFa&list=PL523826BEF4A1EF7B&lf=player_embedded"]Science and Islam: part 3: The Power of Doubt - YouTube[/url]

Amazing he , don't you think ?


Did Roger or Francis Bacon Really Discover The Scientific Method ?

Source: Briffault's "Making of Humanity "

Here u go :

Note that the author mentions the "Arabic civilization or Arabic science " instead of saying the islamic ones : Arabs were in the minority concerning the latters


Excerpt from "The Reconstruction of Religious Thought " by Sir Dr.Muhammad Iqbal u can download for free here below , quoting Briffault : chapter 5 : The spirit of muslim culture :

(....Europe has been rather slow to recognise the islamic origin of her scientific method .But full recognition of the fact has at last come .Let me quote one or two passages from Briffault's making of Humanity :



Quote :

"....It was under their succesors at that Oxford school that Roger Bacon learned Arabic & Arabic science .Neither Roger Bacon nor his later namesake has any title to be credited with having introduced the experimental method.Roger Bacon was no more than one of the apostles of muslim science & method to christian Europe, and he never wearied of declaring that a knowledge of Arabic & Arabian science was for his contemporaries the only way to true knowledge.Discussions as to who was the originator of the experimental method are part of the colossal misrepresentation of the origins of European civilization. The experimental method of the Arabs was by Bacon's time widespread & eagerly cultivated throughout Europe . -pp.200-01-

Science is the most momentous contribution of Arab civilization to the modern world ,but its fruits were slow in ripening .Not until after long Moorish culture had sunk back into darkness did the giant to which it had given birth rise in his might .It was not science which brought Europe back to life .

Other and manifold influences from the civilization of islam communicated its first glow to European life.

For although there is not a single aspect of European growth in which the decisive influence of the islamic culture is not traceable,nowhere is it so clear& momentous as in the genesis of that power which constitutes the paramount distinctive force of the modern world and the supreme force of its victory -natural science & the scientific spirit.

The debt of our science to that of the Arabs does not consist in startling discoveries or revolutionary theories, science owes a great deal more to Arab culture , it owes its existence .

The ancient world was , as we saw , pre-scientific .

The astronomy & mathematics of the Greek were a foreign importation never thoroughly acclimatized in Greek culture .The Greeks systematized, generalized & theorized , but the patient ways of investigation , the accumulation of positive knowledge ,the minute methods of science,detailed & prolonged observation, experimental inquiry ,were altogether alien to the Greek temperament .

Only in Hellinistic Alexandria was any approach to scientific work conducted in the ancient classical world, what we call science arose in Europe as a result of a new spirit of inquiry , of new methods of investigation ,of the method of experiment ,observation, measurement, of the development of mathematics in a form unknown to the Greeks .

That spirit & those methods were introduced to the European world by the Arabs -p.191-" end quote

The first important point to note about the spirit of muslim culture then is that ,for purposes of knowledge,[B]it fixes its gaze on the concrete, the finite .

It is further clear that the birth of the method of observation and experiment in islam was due not to a compromise with Greek thought but to a prolonged intellectual warfare with it .In fact ,the influence of the Greeks who,as Briffault says ,were interested chiefly in theory ,not in fact ,tended rather to obscure the muslims ' vision of the Qur'an ,and for at least two centuries kept the practical Arab temperament from asserting itself & coming to its own .I want therefore to definitely eradicate [B]the misunderstanding that Greek thought , in any way, determined the character of muslim culture.....)


Source : The Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam by Sir Dr. Muhammad Iqbal , chapter 5 : the spirit of muslim culture :

Download the book for free :


http://www.maroc.nl/forums/nieuws-de-dag...ost4903943





Further more , see in the above mentioned book of Iqbal how muslims were the first ever to discover evolution itself & much much more


see this 3-part docu on the matter too while u are at it , presented by a an Iraki-British scientist on the field :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPlaS_wGz...r_embedded"]Science and Islam: Part 1: The Language of Science - YouTube


http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL5238...PlaS_wGzx8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0FSgNE4L...r_embedded"]Science and Islam: Part 2: The Empire of Reason - YouTube



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LjdnKE_i...r_embedded"]Science and Islam: part 3: The Power of Doubt - YouTube

Amazing he , don't you think ?
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08-12-2011, 03:25 PM
RE: Did Roger or Francis Bacon Really Discover The Scientific Method ?
With respect, Briffault and Dr Sir M Iqbal may be nice guys but we don't have to take them as gospel. I'm pretty sure an opinion like yours, that everything good only originates with Islam and the Arabs is not common among scholars.

Also a post as long as the one you've just posted is going to be read by no one. State your hypothesis in a short post. Then back it up later if asked for clarification.
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08-12-2011, 04:10 PM
RE: Did Roger or Francis Bacon Really Discover The Scientific Method ?
(08-12-2011 03:25 PM)morondog Wrote:  With respect, Briffault and Dr Sir M Iqbal may be nice guys but we don't have to take them as gospel. I'm pretty sure an opinion like yours, that everything good only originates with Islam and the Arabs is not common among scholars.

Also a post as long as the one you've just posted is going to be read by no one. State your hypothesis in a short post. Then back it up later if asked for clarification.


What are you talking about ?

I posted this thread in order to discuss it with people here ,that's 1

2-Many people here have read it & commented on it if you haven't noticed yet

3- I think that all beliefs , cultures , thoughtstreams ...do have some elements of truth , to some extent at least ,including the atheistic ones , so

Gotta go, thanks , appreciate

Good night
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08-12-2011, 07:19 PM
RE: Did Roger or Francis Bacon Really Discover The Scientific Method ?
(08-12-2011 12:54 PM)AbdelZ Wrote:  
(08-12-2011 09:24 AM)Azaraith Wrote:  I have to say I steongly agree with the idea that the scientific method has been in existence for a long time, it was simply codified by Bacon et al. Makingbup claims that the Muslims invented the scientific process itself seems no more valid to me than the idea that Hindus invented how to walk.

Also, because of how backwards and ignorant most of modern Islam is, I have no respect for its practitioners. Get out of the 15th century and we can talk - give equal rights to women and homosexuals, stop using violence to attempt to spread your mental disease and stop arresting people for violating inane religious laws. Shariah has no place in a civilized society. Honor killings absolutely despicable and a black mark on the already sordid record of Islam. [End rant]


You gotta try to read the content of the topic first & read my previous posts on the matter while you are at it instead of jumping to conclusions ,this irrational silly contra-productive way , without even thinking , letting your own psychological defenses ,denials , western brainwash & emotions determin your words you has just shown that you are the opposite of the claim of this site " The thinking atheist "

Ignorance is no argument : none of the Bacons had anything to do with discovering the scientific method ; Can't you read ? Roger Bacon was even a student of muslim scientists in Spain ....an understatement

Well, ignorance as shown here by yourself is no ...argument : your ignorance of islam , of the history of islam , of the laws of history in relation to the rise & decline of civilizations, your ignorance of modern time in relation to the legacy of western imperialism in muslim countries , your ignorance of the fact that this is indeed the time of muslims' decline , not islam's , your ignorance of the well proven islamic origin of the scientific method (overwhelming evidence : just read those books on the matter of both Sir Dr. philosopher & poet Muhammad Iqbal & Briffault ) , your ignorance of the fact that all those "universalism, truth, objectivity " & other claims of modernism were already sent to Alice's wonderland by post-modernism for example ,among other ..............


Your obvious ignorance of the fact that the west is just a part of the world, not the world, your ignorance of the fact that there is not only one single view of the world, man , the universe ...., not one single thought or one single kindda ethics in the world : that the western one line of thought since Descartes at least is just one among many in this world

See how post-modernism for example calls for relativism, pluralism even outside of western thought & outside of liberal democracy , because neither western thought nor western ethics , let alone liberal democracy, to mention just these , are 'universal, true , objective ' in the absolute sense

See how post-modernism for example has been trying to combine western individualism & Oriental holism while islam is already individualistic & holistic at the same time

See how even objectivity does not exist , not even at the level of exact sciences , let alone alsewhere


You have been talking about the rights of guys ,women ...for example , about ethics in that regard

Well, rights or ethics are not a matter of facts , they are a matter of moral ethical & other references

Western materialistic modern ethics or materialistic monistic a-moral ethics for example that declare that neither good nor bad do exist as such can be traced back to Spinoza's ethics or monism : what have those ethics to do with science or with facts then ?

You cannot prove that the one or other culture , ethics are better than the other

You cannot even approach other cultures "objectively " via your own culture you always carry with you deep in your very soul , let alone that you can approach religious ethics via the secular or atheistic ones , so

I think that western thought gotta get out of its imperialistic racist paternalistic Eurocentrism in order to learn from the rest of the world as post-modernism for example does :

western thought, ethics , cultures that had learned from previous cultures , ethics , thought to get to this point in this modern time , the latter that's no synonymous of progress in the absolute sense

we should try to combine western thought with the Oriental one in order to come up with a universal thought , ethics : western thought , ethics cannot be the only reference to that obviously , while each camp must have the right & liberty to keep its own views of life , the world, the universe & ethics ; we all make part of this world

Read this great book on the matter :

"The Geography of Thought " or how westerners & Asians think differently & why ? by culture psychologist Richard E.Nisbett

I DID read the topic, at least the OP and many of the responses. I can't say I've read every word of every post, but I've read enough of it. I'm not brainwashed, I've just looked at actual events and Islamic laws in a neutral view. I don't hate Muslims, I just don't respect them. I don't respect Christians either. Individual Muslims and individual Christians might be able to earn my respect, but they don't get it by default.

You might disagree with my statement that the scientific process wasn't invented by Muslims, but you didn't even comprehend what I was trying to say if you think I said Francis Bacon invented it. I said that he CODIFIED IT. Meaning, he wrote it down / came up with a step-by-step description of the methods used in the scientific process. The scientific process itself is elementary logic.

I'd excuse you if English isn't your primary language, but since you turned to childish insults and are posting on an English-language board, you will get no such concession. Learn English and basic comprehension skills before trying to "debate" people.

I don't care what your sources claim, I haven't found any others that back them up - most reputable sources state that he studied at Oxford and later became a friar in the Franciscan Order. No mention of him being a student of Muslims that I've seen, though there is mention that he leaned on the work of Islamic opticians for some of his work on magnifying glasses. If you can find a work stating he was a Muslim student, by a reputable scholar (not one named after Islam's prophet Wink ) I'd be more amiable towards your position. As it is, Dr. Muhammad has little credibility to me since his position isn't corroborated by other sources and he is very likely biased.

I disagree with your ridiculous claim (that Muslims invented the scientific method) and it's your job to prove they invented it - show that no one before them utilized a similar method and I'll give you some bacon. (joke) Your sources are biased and completely non-credible.

I am very aware of other cultures besides the West. I've traveled my fair share. However, I only care about what Muslims are doing now, not in 1200 AD. Are they advancing civilization or are they sentencing people to death for apostacy, committing honor killings, and refusing to let women drive or even go out in public unsupervised? Ethics aren't absolute, but not all beliefs or ethical systems are equally valid. I will state clearly: I don't regard the ethics of Muslims as acceptable in 2011. If we are aiming for a universal view of ethics and understanding, Muslims aren't leading the way - they're digging in and marching in the opposite direction.

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08-12-2011, 07:29 PM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2011 08:23 PM by Chas.)
RE: Did Roger or Francis Bacon Really Discover The Scientific Method ?
Actually, the Greeks made the first substantive steps in the creation of the scientific method.

The scientific method is the product of rational minds, not ones clouded by religion. So trying to claim it for the Muslims or Christians are equally wrong.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-12-2011, 12:27 PM (This post was last modified: 09-12-2011 12:42 PM by AbdelZ.)
RE: Did Roger or Francis Bacon Really Discover The Scientific Method ?
(08-12-2011 07:29 PM)Chas Wrote:  Actually, the Greeks made the first substantive steps in the creation of the scientific method.

The scientific method is the product of rational minds, not ones clouded by religion. So trying to claim it for the Muslims or Christians are equally wrong.

The scientific method came from the Qur,an himself in the sense that the latter calls for the use of reason, experience , the seeking of knowledge in the broader sense , constant search , practice ......The Qur'an that elevates that all to the level of religious duties , to the level of worship of God : true science is therefore a worship of God in the larger islamic sense , when it's liberated from materialism as an ideology & from its mechanical deterministic paradigms such as "the newtonian -cartesian " paradigm .....Long story , induction originated also from the Qur'an , so

The Qur,an that considers intuitive insights or heart , feeling , ....as sources of knowledge also together with reason, logic , empiricism

See how post-modernism had also adopted this epistemological Qur'anic view , inspired in that by Oriental holism ....

Oh, boy : you have been missing so many degrees of reality due to your lower degrees of consciousness : impossible task to debate this topic with you, guys, as a result :

You gotta have to reconsider almost everything you know on the matter if you wanna stand any chance to understand what i am saying




(08-12-2011 07:19 PM)Azaraith Wrote:  
(08-12-2011 12:54 PM)AbdelZ Wrote:  
(08-12-2011 09:24 AM)Azaraith Wrote:  I have to say I steongly agree with the idea that the scientific method has been in existence for a long time, it was simply codified by Bacon et al. Makingbup claims that the Muslims invented the scientific process itself seems no more valid to me than the idea that Hindus invented how to walk.

Also, because of how backwards and ignorant most of modern Islam is, I have no respect for its practitioners. Get out of the 15th century and we can talk - give equal rights to women and homosexuals, stop using violence to attempt to spread your mental disease and stop arresting people for violating inane religious laws. Shariah has no place in a civilized society. Honor killings absolutely despicable and a black mark on the already sordid record of Islam. [End rant]


You gotta try to read the content of the topic first & read my previous posts on the matter while you are at it instead of jumping to conclusions ,this irrational silly contra-productive way , without even thinking , letting your own psychological defenses ,denials , western brainwash & emotions determin your words you has just shown that you are the opposite of the claim of this site " The thinking atheist "

Ignorance is no argument : none of the Bacons had anything to do with discovering the scientific method ; Can't you read ? Roger Bacon was even a student of muslim scientists in Spain ....an understatement

Well, ignorance as shown here by yourself is no ...argument : your ignorance of islam , of the history of islam , of the laws of history in relation to the rise & decline of civilizations, your ignorance of modern time in relation to the legacy of western imperialism in muslim countries , your ignorance of the fact that this is indeed the time of muslims' decline , not islam's , your ignorance of the well proven islamic origin of the scientific method (overwhelming evidence : just read those books on the matter of both Sir Dr. philosopher & poet Muhammad Iqbal & Briffault ) , your ignorance of the fact that all those "universalism, truth, objectivity " & other claims of modernism were already sent to Alice's wonderland by post-modernism for example ,among other ..............


Your obvious ignorance of the fact that the west is just a part of the world, not the world, your ignorance of the fact that there is not only one single view of the world, man , the universe ...., not one single thought or one single kindda ethics in the world : that the western one line of thought since Descartes at least is just one among many in this world

See how post-modernism for example calls for relativism, pluralism even outside of western thought & outside of liberal democracy , because neither western thought nor western ethics , let alone liberal democracy, to mention just these , are 'universal, true , objective ' in the absolute sense

See how post-modernism for example has been trying to combine western individualism & Oriental holism while islam is already individualistic & holistic at the same time

See how even objectivity does not exist , not even at the level of exact sciences , let alone alsewhere


You have been talking about the rights of guys ,women ...for example , about ethics in that regard

Well, rights or ethics are not a matter of facts , they are a matter of moral ethical & other references

Western materialistic modern ethics or materialistic monistic a-moral ethics for example that declare that neither good nor bad do exist as such can be traced back to Spinoza's ethics or monism : what have those ethics to do with science or with facts then ?

You cannot prove that the one or other culture , ethics are better than the other

You cannot even approach other cultures "objectively " via your own culture you always carry with you deep in your very soul , let alone that you can approach religious ethics via the secular or atheistic ones , so

I think that western thought gotta get out of its imperialistic racist paternalistic Eurocentrism in order to learn from the rest of the world as post-modernism for example does :

western thought, ethics , cultures that had learned from previous cultures , ethics , thought to get to this point in this modern time , the latter that's no synonymous of progress in the absolute sense

we should try to combine western thought with the Oriental one in order to come up with a universal thought , ethics : western thought , ethics cannot be the only reference to that obviously , while each camp must have the right & liberty to keep its own views of life , the world, the universe & ethics ; we all make part of this world

Read this great book on the matter :

"The Geography of Thought " or how westerners & Asians think differently & why ? by culture psychologist Richard E.Nisbett

I DID read the topic, at least the OP and many of the responses. I can't say I've read every word of every post, but I've read enough of it. I'm not brainwashed, I've just looked at actual events and Islamic laws in a neutral view. I don't hate Muslims, I just don't respect them. I don't respect Christians either. Individual Muslims and individual Christians might be able to earn my respect, but they don't get it by default.

You might disagree with my statement that the scientific process wasn't invented by Muslims, but you didn't even comprehend what I was trying to say if you think I said Francis Bacon invented it. I said that he CODIFIED IT. Meaning, he wrote it down / came up with a step-by-step description of the methods used in the scientific process. The scientific process itself is elementary logic.

I'd excuse you if English isn't your primary language, but since you turned to childish insults and are posting on an English-language board, you will get no such concession. Learn English and basic comprehension skills before trying to "debate" people.

I don't care what your sources claim, I haven't found any others that back them up - most reputable sources state that he studied at Oxford and later became a friar in the Franciscan Order. No mention of him being a student of Muslims that I've seen, though there is mention that he leaned on the work of Islamic opticians for some of his work on magnifying glasses. If you can find a work stating he was a Muslim student, by a reputable scholar (not one named after Islam's prophet Wink ) I'd be more amiable towards your position. As it is, Dr. Muhammad has little credibility to me since his position isn't corroborated by other sources and he is very likely biased.

I disagree with your ridiculous claim (that Muslims invented the scientific method) and it's your job to prove they invented it - show that no one before them utilized a similar method and I'll give you some bacon. (joke) Your sources are biased and completely non-credible.

I am very aware of other cultures besides the West. I've traveled my fair share. However, I only care about what Muslims are doing now, not in 1200 AD. Are they advancing civilization or are they sentencing people to death for apostacy, committing honor killings, and refusing to let women drive or even go out in public unsupervised? Ethics aren't absolute, but not all beliefs or ethical systems are equally valid. I will state clearly: I don't regard the ethics of Muslims as acceptable in 2011. If we are aiming for a universal view of ethics and understanding, Muslims aren't leading the way - they're digging in and marching in the opposite direction.


I see that this is really an impossible task for me to debate this topic with you, guys :

due to your western brainwash mainly that had blown the Greek -Roman heritage beyond any recognition in order to hide or deny those islamic huge influences on modern thought , modern civilization & time

You say you are not brainwashed but you forget all those biological social psychological cultural ideological & other "mechanisms " that shape human thought , thus human behaviour , science is not yet through with : you must be superman then if you pretend not to be subjected to those mechanisms


Read those books i mentioned in this topic & try to learn the fact that we all think differently , that there is not only one thought or one kindda ethics ....in this world , that western thought or ethics , epistemology ...are not universal in the absolute sense , not even remotely close

Try to rid yourselves of your western racist paternalistic imperialistic colonial outdated Eurocentrism by learning from your own post-modernism for example : you are not the center of the universe

Read that great book of Nisbett i mentioned

Sorry, i am not gonna waste my time here any further because otherwise , i would have to make you reconsider almost everything you know about this topic's subject & much more i do not have time for

History must be rewritten , i guess, including that of science

Bye
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09-12-2011, 01:08 PM (This post was last modified: 09-12-2011 01:13 PM by morondog.)
RE: Did Roger or Francis Bacon Really Discover The Scientific Method ?
(09-12-2011 12:27 PM)AbdelZ Wrote:  I see that this is really an impossible task for me to debate this topic with you, guys :

due to your western brainwash mainly that had blown the Greek -Roman heritage beyond any recognition in order to hide or deny those islamic huge influences on modern thought , modern civilization & time
Greek recorded thought = before Islamic recorded thought, and influenced it. There are multiple copies of Greek books bequeathed to us by Islamic scholars who preserved them. Why would they translate them if the Greeks were merely regurgitating Islamic/Arabic ideas?

I fail to see how you can argue that Islamic thought on science was not influenced by the Greeks.

I will not read a bunch of books just because you say so, I will read them if I find them interesting. If you can't produce something to back your claim other than to bleat about reading some thousand page book "and then you'll see" then I'm afraid yeah, I will ignore you.

Quote:You say you are not brainwashed but you forget all those biological social psychological cultural ideological & other "mechanisms " that shape human thought , thus human behaviour , science is not yet through with : you must be superman then if you pretend not to be subjected to those mechanisms

And you're not affected? What makes *you* so sure?

Quote:Try to rid yourselves of your western racist paternalistic imperialistic colonial outdated Eurocentrism by learning from your own post-modernism for example : you are not the center of the universe
In exchange, consider how you may be biased yourself. You know me so well it seems. Racist imperialistic colonial outdated Eurocentric hmm?

Quote:Sorry, i am not gonna waste my time here any further because otherwise , i would have to make you reconsider almost everything you know about this topic's subject & much more i do not have time for

What did you hope to achieve? Did you think we'd all bow down to the gods Briffault and Iqbal? Here we argue about stuff. If you take it personally, that's your problem.
PS: Islamic and Arabic scholarship did have a HUGE influence on the Western world and Western thought, that is accepted. What we contest is your claim that you guys were the inventors of modern science, since we can trace its roots further back.
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09-12-2011, 01:16 PM
RE: Did Roger or Francis Bacon Really Discover The Scientific Method ?
Quote:The scientific method came from the Qur,an himself in the sense that the latter calls for the use of reason, experience , the seeking of knowledge in the broader sense , constant search , practice ......The Qur'an that elevates that all to the level of religious duties , to the level of worship of God : true science is therefore a worship of God in the larger islamic sense , when it's liberated from materialism as an ideology & from its mechanical deterministic paradigms such as "the newtonian -cartesian " paradigm .....Long story , induction originated also from the Qur'an , so ...
You clearly have an ideological axe to grind. No one is denying that people living in the Islamic world during medieval times preserved previous knowledge and added to it, maybe considerably.
But the scientific method has been refined over the centuries with influences from many cultures, with ideas travelling back and forth getting enriched in the process.
For one culture to lay sole claim to the development of the scientific method is demonstrably incorrect.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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