Did the Jesus part ruin it?
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29-04-2016, 12:26 PM
RE: Did the Jesus part ruin it?
(28-04-2016 05:33 PM)Alla Wrote:  God became mortal man
WOW! Now I understand how God KNOWS what it means to be human(mortal man)

God experienced physical pain and physical death.
WOW, now I understand how God KNOWS what pain and death are.

You mean GOD DID NOT KNOW what pain and death felt like until he actually experienced it for himself at the passion? WOW, that must have been a horrible experience.

And yet he threatens to torment us, for eternity, in unquenchable flames of fire. What a sadistic SOB!

"Why hast thou forsaken me, o deity whose existence I doubt..." - Dr. Sheldon Cooper
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29-04-2016, 12:38 PM
RE: Did the Jesus part ruin it?
(29-04-2016 12:26 PM)mgoering Wrote:  You mean GOD DID NOT KNOW what pain and death felt like until he actually experienced it for himself at the passion? WOW, that must have been a horrible experience.

And yet he threatens to torment us, for eternity, in unquenchable flames of fire. What a sadistic SOB!

Yeah, I hadn't thought about it like that. God didn't invent hell until after Jesus became human. He decided to switch from Sheol to eternal torture after learning what human suffering was.

Creepy.
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30-04-2016, 09:20 PM (This post was last modified: 30-04-2016 09:24 PM by Alla.)
RE: Did the Jesus part ruin it?
RobbyPants Wrote:litation from which God suffers?

You can not be ALL-knowing and NOT KNOW from your own experience what physical pain or physical death are.

............

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30-04-2016, 09:27 PM
RE: Did the Jesus part ruin it?
(29-04-2016 12:26 PM)mgoering Wrote:  
(28-04-2016 05:33 PM)Alla Wrote:  God became mortal man
WOW! Now I understand how God KNOWS what it means to be human(mortal man)

God experienced physical pain and physical death.
WOW, now I understand how God KNOWS what pain and death are.

You mean GOD DID NOT KNOW what pain and death felt like until he actually experienced it for himself at the passion? WOW, that must have been a horrible experience.

And yet he threatens to torment us, for eternity, in unquenchable flames of fire. What a sadistic SOB!

Yes, this is exactly what I am saying.
You can not be ALL-knowing and NOT know from your own experience what physical pain or death are.

God does NOT threaten to torment us for ETERNITY. I don't even know where you got this idea from.

English is my second language.
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30-04-2016, 09:38 PM
RE: Did the Jesus part ruin it?
SitaSky Wrote:I don't need you to "explain" why you feel Jesus is real and Yahweh created everything, I have heard plenty of conversion stories in my life based on feelings, miracles, prayers coming true, or even revelations and visions of God touching someone's heart or speaking directly to them. If those stories didn't convince me yours won't either.
I didn't offer to share with you my conversion story. I offered to explain why Jesus's story is NOT original but a copy-cat. It is very easy to explain.

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30-04-2016, 10:12 PM
RE: Did the Jesus part ruin it?
(30-04-2016 09:27 PM)Alla Wrote:  ... God does NOT threaten to torment us for ETERNITY. I don't even know where you got this idea from ...

Matthew 25:46 for a start.

But this notion of a god tormenting anyone at all for any span of time fully contradicts the notion of a merciful, ALL KNOWING agglomeration of intelligent energy: it supposes such a being has the maturity and demeanor of a 3 year old having a tantrum - masturbating its rage center to high climax as its own creations do exactly what it knew they'd do.

There's been a lot of supposition here and in many other threads that pain is a problem to be avoided, or that pain in and of itself is a problem. Pain is not only not a problem it is crucial to survival. Pain is an evolutionary adaptation that serves as a warning that anatomical integrity is being threatened. A sharp penetration of the skin produces the immediate possibility of excess blood loss and bacterial invasion, either of which could prove lethal. So such an event hurts, to call attention to it in a manner that is difficult to ignore - it's UNPLEASANT.

I'm sure psychological pain serves the same purpose, to warn that emotional circumstances are severe enough to cause lasting harm if not dealt with (unfortunately what hasn't yet evolved sufficiently is a more complete warning system that informs of remedies but our own advance of knowledge makes up for that shortcoming).

In any case a deceased person no longer extant as a biological organism isn't going to feel pain, nor have any need to. If some sick sadistic asshole of a god has plans to make post-death existence unpleasant, it won't be by pain, and wouldn't have any point, in that the intent of punishment is to deter repetition of an offence, but such repetitions would be impossible post-death.
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02-05-2016, 05:26 AM
RE: Did the Jesus part ruin it?
(30-04-2016 09:20 PM)Alla Wrote:  
RobbyPants Wrote:litation from which God suffers?

You can not be ALL-knowing and NOT KNOW from your own experience what physical pain or physical death are.

............

The part you said that I responded to was:

(29-04-2016 08:13 AM)Alla Wrote:  It is not possible according to natural laws to feel physical pain and physical death without physical body.

Actually, I should have probably replied more to this part of that same post:

(29-04-2016 08:13 AM)Alla Wrote:  There is no such thing as to know prior thoughts that were not formed(created) yet in someone's head.
God is all-knowing ONLY about things that are POSSIBLE according to natural law, NOT things that are NOT possible according to natural laws.

YHWH is pretty well known for doing stuff outside of "natural laws". I can't understand how this would possibly be a limitation for him. Otherwise, there'd be no
  • Creation (violation of conservation of matter and energy)
  • Global flood (too many violations of natural laws to bother listing)
  • Virgin birth (goes against everything we know about genetics)
  • Miracles (again, too many to list)
I mean, your belief system clearly doesn't have a problem with YHWH breaking natural laws, so you can't honestly use that as a defense against things that go against your theological world views.
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02-05-2016, 07:57 AM
RE: Did the Jesus part ruin it?
(02-05-2016 05:26 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(30-04-2016 09:20 PM)Alla Wrote:  You can not be ALL-knowing and NOT KNOW from your own experience what physical pain or physical death are.

............

The part you said that I responded to was:

(29-04-2016 08:13 AM)Alla Wrote:  It is not possible according to natural laws to feel physical pain and physical death without physical body.

Actually, I should have probably replied more to this part of that same post:

(29-04-2016 08:13 AM)Alla Wrote:  There is no such thing as to know prior thoughts that were not formed(created) yet in someone's head.
God is all-knowing ONLY about things that are POSSIBLE according to natural law, NOT things that are NOT possible according to natural laws.

YHWH is pretty well known for doing stuff outside of "natural laws". I can't understand how this would possibly be a limitation for him. Otherwise, there'd be no
  • Creation (violation of conservation of matter and energy)
  • Global flood (too many violations of natural laws to bother listing)
  • Virgin birth (goes against everything we know about genetics)
  • Miracles (again, too many to list)
I mean, your belief system clearly doesn't have a problem with YHWH breaking natural laws, so you can't honestly use that as a defense against things that go against your theological world views.
Could you, please, tell me how God broke natural laws in those cases?
I want to know what you know.

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SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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02-05-2016, 07:59 AM
RE: Did the Jesus part ruin it?
(30-04-2016 10:12 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  
(30-04-2016 09:27 PM)Alla Wrote:  ... God does NOT threaten to torment us for ETERNITY. I don't even know where you got this idea from ...

Matthew 25:46 for a start.

But this notion of a god tormenting anyone at all for any span of time fully contradicts the notion of a merciful, ALL KNOWING agglomeration of intelligent energy: it supposes such a being has the maturity and demeanor of a 3 year old having a tantrum - masturbating its rage center to high climax as its own creations do exactly what it knew they'd do.

There's been a lot of supposition here and in many other threads that pain is a problem to be avoided, or that pain in and of itself is a problem. Pain is not only not a problem it is crucial to survival. Pain is an evolutionary adaptation that serves as a warning that anatomical integrity is being threatened. A sharp penetration of the skin produces the immediate possibility of excess blood loss and bacterial invasion, either of which could prove lethal. So such an event hurts, to call attention to it in a manner that is difficult to ignore - it's UNPLEASANT.

I'm sure psychological pain serves the same purpose, to warn that emotional circumstances are severe enough to cause lasting harm if not dealt with (unfortunately what hasn't yet evolved sufficiently is a more complete warning system that informs of remedies but our own advance of knowledge makes up for that shortcoming).

In any case a deceased person no longer extant as a biological organism isn't going to feel pain, nor have any need to. If some sick sadistic asshole of a god has plans to make post-death existence unpleasant, it won't be by pain, and wouldn't have any point, in that the intent of punishment is to deter repetition of an offence, but such repetitions would be impossible post-death.

Mat 25:46. It does NOT say "for eternity"

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02-05-2016, 09:55 AM
RE: Did the Jesus part ruin it?
(02-05-2016 07:57 AM)Alla Wrote:  Could you, please, tell me how God broke natural laws in those cases?
I want to know what you know.

Well, this whole thing might be you and I making different assumptions of what a "natural law" is, and you might need to define them in such a way that it doesn't look like you're shifting the goal posts.

I am using it terms of things we understand about the universe in terms of how it works. This is gleaned through observation. So, to elaborate on my earlier list:

Creation: Matter cannot be created from nothing, yet the creation stories in Genesis say God did exactly that.

God would have had to violate the conservation of matter and energy


Global flood: There are a lot of problems involving the flood story. What we know about genetics would mean the genetic bottleneck post flood would be extremely narrow, and many species would have died out due to a single run-in with a disease. The plants that were underwater would have died, and there'd be little or no food for the herbivores. What we know about biology says that you need a much larger population of prey compared to the carnivores. With animals being brought to the ark in twos, many species would have been hunted to extinction before they could procreate. The hunters would subsequently starve. There's no geological evidence of a world-wide flood, and there are many fragile rock formations that would not exist.

God would have had to either alter genetics or somehow keep diseases at bay, create food for the animals, and altered the geological record to remove evidence of the flood.


Virgin birth: Humans get two sets of chromosomes, one from each parent. Since Mary's impregnation is described as the spirit coming upon her (heh), I can only imagine this involves the creation of genetic material inside of her.

Violation of conservation of matter and energy.


Miracles: Just take the water to wine one, for starters. We cannot chemically transmute water to wine. The bread and fish miracle involves creating matter from nothing.

God chemically alters substances in ways that cannot be done and yet again violates the conservation of matter and energy.



So, I guess, my question to you is: in what way his God not violating "natural laws" in those examples? What is a "natural law"?
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