Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
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21-07-2017, 12:48 PM (This post was last modified: 21-07-2017 03:37 PM by Dom.)
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
Some day there will be some really good books about all this.

You couldn't come up with better characters and a better setting for the soap of all soap operas. And it's all history in the making, with politics and spies and high society and lots of money *, and we don't know what will happen on the international stage to mix up the plot.

I haven't paid this much attention to politics since Nixon. Other presidents came and went and I may have disagreed with some or most of what they did. But none activated a bright red blinking light in my brain like Nixon, and now Trump.

* P.S. Not to forget the beautiful women and horny old men.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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21-07-2017, 12:49 PM (This post was last modified: 21-07-2017 12:57 PM by SYZ.)
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
(21-07-2017 12:15 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(21-07-2017 12:01 PM)SYZ Wrote:  Russian lawyer rNatalia Veselnitskaya—who met Donald Trump Jr. after his father won the Republican nomination for the 2016 US presidential election—counted Russia's FSB security service among her clients for years, Russian court documents show. The Security Service of the Russian Federation is the principal security agency of the Russian government.

Next question please...

Clients.

Say it again.

Clients.

Are you really this naive—to think that Veselnitskaya wasn't working hand-in-glove with the Russian government, but was meeting with Trump Jr as an unbiassed, independent agent of some sort?

Why do you think Trump Jr met with Veselnitskaya? To discuss European soccer results LOL.

Quote:The current nominee for FBI Director worked for a firm that represented an arm of the Russian government in a lawsuit or something. Does that mean he is a "representative" of the Russian government as well?

Uh... nope. You're just playing with semantics anyway. King & Spalding, the law firm that Christopher Wray worked for, represented Rosneft and Gazprom, two of Russia’s largest state-controlled oil companies.

Oil company Rosneft was prominently mentioned in the infamous dossier produced by former British MI6 agent Christopher David Steele. The dossier claimed that the CEO of Rosneft, Igor Ivanovich Sechin, offered then-candidate Donald Trump—through Trump’s campaign advisor Carter Page—a 19% stake in the company in exchange for lifting US sanctions on Russia. Rosneft was also the company that had a $500 billion oil drilling joint-venture with Exxon in 2012, when current Secretary of State Rex Tillerson was its CEO. So both Trump and Tillerson had closer meaningful links with Russia than did Wray.

There's no indication that Wray personally worked on any of the Rosneft or Gazprom legal matters handled by his law firm anyway, but I accept that there could be a perceived if not actual conflict of interest as FBI director.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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21-07-2017, 01:11 PM
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
(21-07-2017 12:34 PM)BnW Wrote:  
(21-07-2017 10:56 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  There's a big difference between hiring a private citizen onto your payroll and meeting with representatives of a government that is trying to tamper with the election.

Yes, I agree there is a big different between those two things, but those are not the dynamics in play here.

Christopher Steel was not hired direct. He was hired via a company called Fusion-GPS. Incidentally, Fusion-GPS was also hired by Prevezon. If that name seems familiar to you, it should. Prevezon was the company represented by Russian lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya, who met with Trump Jr., Kushner and Manafort. She was representing Prevezon in a money-laundering case and was allowed into the US by the Obama administration ostensibly to provide representation. Presumably, the Obama administration did not think she was a member of the Russian government at the time they granted her that visa. Fusion-GPS was hired to provide "ligation support" for Prevezon, although what they actually did is a mystery to at least me. And, just to make the whole thing weirder, after Trump took office his administration fired the AG who was running that case (Preet Bharara) and then settled the case very much to Prevezon's benefit. That's a part of this whole thing that gets overlooked.

But, I digress. Here's the point - it's not as simple as one hired a private citizen to do opposition research and one set up a meeting with a member of the Russian government. Fusion-GPS clearly has some ties to the Russians. What those ties are are not clear to me. But, Hillary's campaign can't just hire a firm like that and wash their hands of shady dealings and claim they didn't know. That's bullshit.

As a secondary point, it's not clear that Donnie Jr. knowingly took a meeting with representatives of the Russian government. He may be technically guilty of a crime here - I still think there are issues of law and fact to be settled before anyone can say that with any kind of certainty - but I think what he's really guilty of is being a spoiled little turd who is in his position solely due to accident of birth and if left to his own devices would be the night manager at a Wendy's. The phrase "you're out of your element, Donny!" spring to mind with Trump jr. even more so than with his old man. I think he's guilty of not being smart enough to spot the set up. And, it was a set up. All these Russians wanted was the repeal of the Magnitsky law. The whole adoption thing is directly correlated to that. And, what's really funny is that Trump reaffirmed the law recently whereas Clinton was never a fan (and during the campaign it didn't seem like Trump was either).

But, it's just not as clear cut as you are presenting it.

Fair enough. I think there's enough of a difference to make it meaningful.
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21-07-2017, 01:45 PM
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
(21-07-2017 11:49 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Jeff Sessions...not a member of the Trump campaign.

Bullshit.

Atty. Gen. Jeff Sessions, who served as a top campaign advisor to President Trump, ... Sessions chaired Trump's foreign policy advisory committee, normally a point of pride.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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21-07-2017, 01:49 PM (This post was last modified: 21-07-2017 02:49 PM by BnW.)
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
And I think there is not enough known about either situation to really draw distinctions.

The whole thing is weird. The common use of Fusion-GPS is really bizarre. Maybe that's just a huge coincidence but it really raises some eyebrows.

And, I agree with SYZ's point - it's amazing that a Russian lawyer can show up to talk about "adoptions", and issue that has been explicitly linked by the Russian government to the Magnitsky law and is a matter of public record, and no one thinks "maybe this is not a great idea". At the moment that came up, someone should have ended the meeting and called the FBI. The problem isn't taking the meeting. The meeting itself may have seemed innocuous at the time it was agreed upon. It's the series of fuck-ups that ensued once they all entered the room that is gobsmacking.

Like I said - it's possible Trump jr isn't a criminal. It's entirely possible he's just a complete idiot.

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21-07-2017, 01:54 PM
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
(21-07-2017 01:49 PM)BnW Wrote:  Like I said - it's possible Trump jr isn't a criminal. It's entirely possible he's just a complete idiot.

I think they believe they are above the law. By birthright and shit. I call it Leona Helmsley disease. Only the little people pay taxes. At least she was honest about it.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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21-07-2017, 01:55 PM
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
(21-07-2017 01:45 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(21-07-2017 11:49 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Jeff Sessions...not a member of the Trump campaign.

Bullshit.

Atty. Gen. Jeff Sessions, who served as a top campaign advisor to President Trump, ... Sessions chaired Trump's foreign policy advisory committee, normally a point of pride.

Facts are wasted on LDH. He gets his news by sticking his head up his own ass, like all Trumptards.

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21-07-2017, 02:01 PM
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
(21-07-2017 01:55 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  
(21-07-2017 01:45 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Bullshit.

Facts are wasted on LDH. He gets his news by sticking his head up his own ass, like all Trumptards.

I think he just makes up his own alternative facts on the fly. Like his hero does.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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21-07-2017, 03:06 PM
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
(21-07-2017 02:01 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(21-07-2017 01:55 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  Facts are wasted on LDH. He gets his news by sticking his head up his own ass, like all Trumptards.

I think he just makes up his own alternative facts on the fly. Like his hero does.

When he was spouting his "fake news" nonsense earlier today, I almost responded: "Congratulations -- you sound just like Trump!" But he would have taken it as a compliment.
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21-07-2017, 05:17 PM
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
Breaking News

Sessions discussed Trump-campaign-related matters with Russian ambassador, U.S. intelligence intercepts show

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