Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
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22-07-2017, 06:54 AM
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
I think there are many leakers. I think there are US persons who are resisting and trying to avert the threat to our democracy. I also think there are foreign intelligence services doing the same and supporting this. Remember when trump had the Russians come to the white house and bragged about firing Comey and divulged foreign intelligence to them? Do you really think the foreign intelligence services shrugged their shoulders and ignored that?

People in the US are quick to ignore the rest of the world, but it doesn't work the same in reverse.

No way is this one person like deep throat. He would have to be everywhere, in the white house, in intelligence services ...

You bet your sweet ass that the world community is having a say in this. It affects the entire world.

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22-07-2017, 07:12 AM
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
(22-07-2017 06:46 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  The thought occurs to me that the Russians may well be doing the leaking because they're unhappy with Trump's policy re: Syria.

I doubt it. Trump just brokered a ceasefire in Syria and under terms the Russians were very happy with. But, many in the US were not happy with it. That includes the hawkish Republicans, the defense industry, and a lot of the mainstream press. Go check out the Washington Post headlines on the topic. They seem to operate under the theory that anything Putin likes has to, by default, be against out interest and something we shouldn't do. Trump challenges that notion. Maybe more than he should, but I don't think so in the of Syria.

And, the reactions to that cease fire are why I continue to believe the leaks are motivated by people who want to preserve the status quo. I don't know that. I can't prove that. But, sitting on the outside looking in, it makes the most sense to me.

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22-07-2017, 07:14 AM
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
(11-07-2017 06:31 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  No. The legal definition of treason requires that it be in a time of war, and that the accused commit acts of war against the nation.

No sorry, there are laws even outside war that you can be convicted of for giving aid to an enemy. Russia is not an ally regardless. Conspiracy, racketeering, economic espionage, money laundering ect ect ect. Those are just as serious to national security even without an official congressional declaration of war.

Playing word games does not make what the Trump family is doing now any less dangerous. I don't care if you don't want to call it treason, the fact that 45 has spent the past year shitting on intel and insulting them REPEATEDLY makes him an impotent leader and unfit. That alone makes him a national security and global security risk.

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22-07-2017, 07:22 AM
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
(22-07-2017 06:54 AM)Dom Wrote:  I think there are many leakers. I think there are US persons who are resisting and trying to avert the threat to our democracy. I also think there are foreign intelligence services doing the same and supporting this. Remember when trump had the Russians come to the white house and bragged about firing Comey and divulged foreign intelligence to them? Do you really think the foreign intelligence services shrugged their shoulders and ignored that?

People in the US are quick to ignore the rest of the world, but it doesn't work the same in reverse.

No way is this one person like deep throat. He would have to be everywhere, in the white house, in intelligence services ...

You bet your sweet ass that the world community is having a say in this. It affects the entire world.

I don't know if that thought should sit well with you. You are essentially then saying that foreign interference with your government is OK? Yet the primary thing Trump is getting excoriated for is allowing foreign interference in your government.

I can see resisting a dictator as worthy of praise, but I can't see foreign intelligence - whether Russian or allied - releasing leaks as anything other than a national security threat to you.

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22-07-2017, 07:27 AM
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
I disagree that shitting on the Intel community makes you unfit. But, what it obviously does do is make you a target for them. That's part of what I meant when I said they are leaking to protect the status quo. Part of that is their positions and influence. Trump threatened them and questioned what they did. Outloud. He brought in a person - Flynn - who also made a lot of noise about revamping how the various intelligence communities work and reigning them in. He was already known in DC to have issues due to work he did with foreign governments. I'm sure it took all of 5 minutes for someone to find the dirt they needed on him and leak it to the press. And ... no more Flynn.

I don't feel bad for Trump because he's such an incredible douchebag. But, I have a real problem with the implications of what has been going on here. The US intelligence community has a long, documented history of doing things that are in contravention of both US and international laws as set forth by treaties the US has signed. Things that were denied for decades have been proven true as older records have been unsealed and declassified. The American public gets told that the CIA no longer does that kind of thing, but I find that highly unlikely. When was the magic point in time that they started to behave? The documents published by Wikileaks prove that we continue to do a whole lot of shit we should not be doing. For all the outrage over the Russians impacting our elections, you could hear a pin drop over the coverage that the Hillary Clinton State Department worked with the CIA to influence the 2012 French elections. That revelation barely had a ripple with the US media. Go figure.

I seriously doubt the Trump family secretly worked with the Russians to hijack this election. They are just not that bright and the Russians are just not that stupid as to put their faith in these people. They are all way too easily corrupted and dumb enough to slip things out. I think it's far more likely they have no idea what they are doing and are collectively bumbling from one mistake to the next. But, the people who run our intelligence are not fools. And, I think they know exactly what they are doing.

And yes, Girly, I guess I am assuming motivations here.

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22-07-2017, 07:30 AM
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
(22-07-2017 07:12 AM)BnW Wrote:  
(22-07-2017 06:46 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  The thought occurs to me that the Russians may well be doing the leaking because they're unhappy with Trump's policy re: Syria.

I doubt it. Trump just brokered a ceasefire in Syria and under terms the Russians were very happy with. But, many in the US were not happy with it. That includes the hawkish Republicans, the defense industry, and a lot of the mainstream press. Go check out the Washington Post headlines on the topic. They seem to operate under the theory that anything Putin likes has to, by default, be against out interest and something we shouldn't do. Trump challenges that notion. Maybe more than he should, but I don't think so in the of Syria.

And, the reactions to that cease fire are why I continue to believe the leaks are motivated by people who want to preserve the status quo. I don't know that. I can't prove that. But, sitting on the outside looking in, it makes the most sense to me.

Yeah, I was thinking more in terms of who we're supporting -- or the airbase attack. Obviously speculating. But the notion that these leaks are only from Americans seems questionable to me. The Russians have historically been masters of managing information for their own benefit on the international stage.
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22-07-2017, 07:30 AM
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
(22-07-2017 07:22 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(22-07-2017 06:54 AM)Dom Wrote:  I think there are many leakers. I think there are US persons who are resisting and trying to avert the threat to our democracy. I also think there are foreign intelligence services doing the same and supporting this. Remember when trump had the Russians come to the white house and bragged about firing Comey and divulged foreign intelligence to them? Do you really think the foreign intelligence services shrugged their shoulders and ignored that?

People in the US are quick to ignore the rest of the world, but it doesn't work the same in reverse.

No way is this one person like deep throat. He would have to be everywhere, in the white house, in intelligence services ...

You bet your sweet ass that the world community is having a say in this. It affects the entire world.

I don't know if that thought should sit well with you. You are essentially then saying that foreign interference with your government is OK? Yet the primary thing Trump is getting excoriated for is allowing foreign interference in your government.

I can see resisting a dictator as worthy of praise, but I can't see foreign intelligence - whether Russian or allied - releasing leaks as anything other than a national security threat to you.

Nothing about all of it sits well with me.

It's war. The whole bloody election was an information war, and it's continuing.

It's a cancer on the world, and I don't see it stopping anytime soon. But it is real war, designed to make or break rulers.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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22-07-2017, 07:38 AM
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
(22-07-2017 07:14 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(11-07-2017 06:31 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  No. The legal definition of treason requires that it be in a time of war, and that the accused commit acts of war against the nation.

No sorry, there are laws even outside war that you can be convicted of for giving aid to an enemy. Russia is not an ally regardless. Conspiracy, racketeering, economic espionage, money laundering ect ect ect. Those are just as serious to national security even without an official congressional declaration of war.

The question was, "did they commit treason?" My answer, based on the language of the law defining treason, was "no." I even linked to the law so you could read it for yourself. At no point did I say they didn't break any other laws, so I'm unclear why you're acting as if I did.

Quote:Playing word games does not make what the Trump family is doing now any less dangerous. I don't care if you don't want to call it treason, the fact that 45 has spent the past year shitting on intel and insulting them REPEATEDLY makes him an impotent leader and unfit. That alone makes him a national security and global security risk.

I'm not playing words games. I'm being precise. My dislike for Trump doesn't mean that I can impose my own meaning upon "treason" or any other legal term ... nor can anyone else, for that matter.
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22-07-2017, 07:46 AM
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
I highly doubt that the Russians put their faith in anyone. I have little doubt that they put their hooks in them, though. It's long been a technique of intelligence services the world over. Coincidentally, stupid people in power make easy targets.
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22-07-2017, 07:48 AM
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
(21-07-2017 09:49 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(21-07-2017 10:36 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Fake sources. Fake stories. Fake news.

They can't name sources because they don't exist.

Do you know anything about journalism? Were you even born when Watergate broke. Do you know how sources work in journalism?
Now that trump is even admitting to these having actuality but not saying these are fake news. They are illegal leaks to him.

Ldh is just a latched to pushing the agenda cause he feels he has to be some counter voice he thinks others arent doing.

To knock anonymous sources at any level and admitted get if you disobey a boss you likely get fired, especially in the case by Trump, then that's why these stories that keep coming true based on those leaking advisors and aides.

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