Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
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22-07-2017, 07:57 AM
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
(22-07-2017 07:27 AM)BnW Wrote:  I disagree that shitting on the Intel community makes you unfit. But, what it obviously does do is make you a target for them. That's part of what I meant when I said they are leaking to protect the status quo. Part of that is their positions and influence. Trump threatened them and questioned what they did. Outloud. He brought in a person - Flynn - who also made a lot of noise about revamping how the various intelligence communities work and reigning them in. He was already known in DC to have issues due to work he did with foreign governments. I'm sure it took all of 5 minutes for someone to find the dirt they needed on him and leak it to the press. And ... no more Flynn.

I don't feel bad for Trump because he's such an incredible douchebag. But, I have a real problem with the implications of what has been going on here. The US intelligence community has a long, documented history of doing things that are in contravention of both US and international laws as set forth by treaties the US has signed. Things that were denied for decades have been proven true as older records have been unsealed and declassified. The American public gets told that the CIA no longer does that kind of thing, but I find that highly unlikely. When was the magic point in time that they started to behave? The documents published by Wikileaks prove that we continue to do a whole lot of shit we should not be doing. For all the outrage over the Russians impacting our elections, you could hear a pin drop over the coverage that the Hillary Clinton State Department worked with the CIA to influence the 2012 French elections. That revelation barely had a ripple with the US media. Go figure.

I seriously doubt the Trump family secretly worked with the Russians to hijack this election. They are just not that bright and the Russians are just not that stupid as to put their faith in these people. They are all way too easily corrupted and dumb enough to slip things out. I think it's far more likely they have no idea what they are doing and are collectively bumbling from one mistake to the next. But, the people who run our intelligence are not fools. And, I think they know exactly what they are doing.

And yes, Girly, I guess I am assuming motivations here.

You're kidding right?

Yes being an asshole and insulting your employees in public erodes morale and undermines their ability to do their jobs effectively.

Even in private sector jobs an ethical boss DOES NOT have insulting public fights with their employees. Even in business if a CEO or even mom and pop shop has a problem with their employees, they have that discussion in private, and any bad service to the consumer, they speak with a diplomatic tone and say, "We will look into that and take actions to correct that problem", AT BEST......

Most adults with any lick of dignity will look for another job if their boss is insulting them or verbally abusing them on a daily basis. I've quit many jobs in my 50 years when some asshole above me thought they could insult me to get me to do something.

Ethical bosses when they have a problem with your work or efficiency will pull you aside and calmly explain to you what they need and expect of you. And they DONT even then, do that in front of the customers.

Here is how a ethical president has a public disagreement,

President X responding to press, " When we find errors, we will work with the intel community to correct those errors. "

THAT is the way you talk, not the way 45 has. 45 only has himself to blame for being an asshole in public.

Being a verbally abusive asshole in a position of power does not promote the confidence of those working below you. Again, I can tell you just from my own work history, you are verbally abusive to me, even in private, but especially in front of the customers, I am going to tell you to fuck of and I will quit.

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22-07-2017, 08:05 AM
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
(22-07-2017 07:14 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(11-07-2017 06:31 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  No. The legal definition of treason requires that it be in a time of war, and that the accused commit acts of war against the nation.

No sorry, there are laws even outside war that you can be convicted of for giving aid to an enemy. Russia is not an ally regardless. Conspiracy, racketeering, economic espionage, money laundering ect ect ect. Those are just as serious to national security even without an official congressional declaration of war.

Playing word games does not make what the Trump family is doing now any less dangerous. I don't care if you don't want to call it treason, the fact that 45 has spent the past year shitting on intel and insulting them REPEATEDLY makes him an impotent leader and unfit. That alone makes him a national security and global security risk.

Russia is not our enemy. We are actually allies. Things were actually pretty good between our two countries when Boris was the Russian president. Not as good through the Putin/Obama years. However Russia and the U.S. are still allies. They have aided us in the war on terror in Afghanistan, even setting up military hospitals and treating our wounded. We've worked together against Somali piracy. Our space programs are joined at the hip. There's a few things to be ironed out as far as diplomacy goes for sure. But definitely not enemies as far as treason is concerned.

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22-07-2017, 08:36 AM
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
(22-07-2017 07:57 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  Being a verbally abusive asshole in a position of power does not promote the confidence of those working below you. Again, I can tell you just from my own work history, you are verbally abusive to me, even in private, but especially in front of the customers, I am going to tell you to fuck of and I will quit.

That's an acceptable response. What is not an acceptable response is continuing to be an employee and leaking the boss' company secrets to competition. And that's sort of what is happening here.

I never said Trump is a good boss but he's been this level of asshole for a long, long time. I can only imagine what he's like to work for, but people worked for him. Lot's of people. Thousands of people. And, there is no reason to believe he treated those people any better than he's treating the people who work for him now.

It's great that you are in a position to say "fuck you" and walk away every time someone at work is mean to you. Most people are not. And, government employees who are looking forward to one day collecting their pensions really are not.

LDH - ever hear of Jonathan Pollard? He was a CIA analysis who gave information to Israel, an ally, and went to jail for 28 years. The information he gave to Israel was information that the US had agreed to give to Israel as part of a treaty. But, then we withheld it. And, Pollard gave them information they were legally supposed to get. And went to jail for it. For 28 years. Your "Russia is an ally" defense isn't going to help up if someone violated a US criminal statute.

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22-07-2017, 08:40 AM
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
(22-07-2017 08:05 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  But definitely not enemies as far as treason is concerned.

Does that change if they interfere in your politics, or is it all good?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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22-07-2017, 08:55 AM
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
(22-07-2017 07:30 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Yeah, I was thinking more in terms of who we're supporting -- or the airbase attack.

It's funny you mention the airbase attack.

After the report on Syria gassing their own people, a professor at MIT, who has been a scientific advisor to the DOD for some time, called bullshit on the Trump administration claim that Assad dropped a Sarin bomb on his own people last April. I grabbed the first link I could find for this but there are several stories covering his claim. I went and read his actual report and statement a few months ago. I recommend you do the same.

A really interesting point that he makes in his assessment is there is no way that the intelligence community reviewed this evidence and signed off on the conclusion that Assad dropped a sarin bomb on these people. And, everyone ignored this.

But, then a funny (and barely covered in the media) thing happened. This story was corroborated by investigative journalist Seymour Hersh. If you're not familiar with Hersh, go google him. He made his name revealing the Mai Lai massacre during the Viet Nam war. He's built his credibility over 50 years uncovering stories that no one else would touch. A lot of what he has reported was initially dismissed as the musings of a crackpot - like when he reported that Bush had Dick Cheney create a secret commission to put together a list of Americans who can be summarily murdered without any due process - and those stories turned out to be true. Hersh may not have been right on every single detail he's written, but the overview of his stories pretty much always prove out. If there is a conflict in account between Donald Trump, a guy who lies when it's easier to tell the truth, and Seymour Hersh, there is no doubt in my mind as to who I am going to believe.

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22-07-2017, 08:58 AM (This post was last modified: 22-07-2017 09:04 AM by Lord Dark Helmet.)
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
No treason.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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22-07-2017, 09:04 AM (This post was last modified: 22-07-2017 09:07 AM by Lord Dark Helmet.)
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
I was pointing out that under the premise of this thread, treason isn't even on the table. The list of people convicted of treason is under 10 people if I'm remembering correctly from my military police academy training. Pollard was convicted of espionage.

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22-07-2017, 10:01 AM
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
I agree there is no treason. I said that several times. But, earlier you tried to argue there wasn't a crime and no one can provide a statute that may have been violated. I did. There is a statute that may have been violated and someone could conceivably go to jail for that. I doubt anyone will, but that's besides the point.

I hope you bend at the knees when you pick up and move your goalposts like that. I'd hate for you to throw your back out.

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22-07-2017, 10:05 AM (This post was last modified: 22-07-2017 10:20 AM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
(22-07-2017 08:36 AM)BnW Wrote:  LDH - ever hear of Jonathan Pollard? He was a CIA analysis who gave information to Israel, an ally, and went to jail for 28 years. The information he gave to Israel was information that the US had agreed to give to Israel as part of a treaty. But, then we withheld it. And, Pollard gave them information they were legally supposed to get. And went to jail for it. For 28 years. Your "Russia is an ally" defense isn't going to help up if someone violated a US criminal statute.

Espionage, legally, is separate from treason. American law holds that treason can only happen in times of war. I'm fairly certain that was his point.

ETA: Never mind, I see this has been addressed.

B&W -- I'm familiar with Hersh and his body of work. Didn't realize that the satin claim was that discredited, though.
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22-07-2017, 10:14 AM
RE: Did the Trump family commit Treason?!?!
That's what his point evolved to, yes. It's a safe, accurate position. That's not where he started, though.

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