Did the bible predict a messiah?
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06-01-2015, 03:22 PM
RE: Did the bible predict a messiah?
Christians often claim that the Old Testament prophesied details of Jesus’ birth, his missionary zeal, miracles, preaching, the betrayal by a friend, his death, resurrection and ascension, and many other aspects of his life. These Christians maintain that Jesus must have been the Messiah because so many of these supposed prophecies come true. Hebrew scholars have always denied this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism’s_view_of_Jesus). There are many reasons why Jesus was not the Messiah.

Firstly, it is well accepted by most scholars that the New Testament authors tried to craft their Jesus stories to fit parts of the Messiah tradition, and there are numerous instances where the authors had a flawed understanding of scripture, or else deliberately changed its meaning, then claimed Jesus was fulfilling their incorrect interpretation. Jesus’ genealogies, (both of them) his birth in Bethlehem, his birth to a virgin mother, (only mentioned in two of four gospels) and his journey to Egypt are examples.

Secondly, many of the Old Testament writings that are said to foretell the coming of Jesus are not really predictions of anything to come.

Thirdly, Jesus never fulfilled the key requirements of a Jewish Messiah.

Fourth, most of the ancient Jews, the very people whose ancestors wrote the Old Testament, rejected Yeshua as their Messiah. The people who associated with Jesus, his fellow Jews, knew him best. As best we know, Jesus had minimal contact with Gentiles until he was nailed to a cross. Why should Christians presume to know better than Jesus’ Jewish contemporaries? (http://www.youtube.com/user/JewsforJudai...-g_TtGhI).
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06-01-2015, 04:25 PM (This post was last modified: 07-01-2015 10:28 AM by Free.)
RE: Did the bible predict a messiah?
(06-01-2015 11:24 AM)thecontemplator Wrote:  The idea of a messiah seems to have arisen out of Jewish legends. If we're going to stick to the bible - since Christians say that's all that counts. Where exactly does it say (in the OT) a savior will come? The closest thing I can remember is something about Moses saying someone greater then him would come. Although that sounds a little vague and Jesus certainly wasn't greater then Moses. Moses parted the red sea while Jesus did cheap parlor tricks like turning water into wine.

Moses was speaking about Joshua:

Deu 18:15 Jehovah your God will raise up to you a Prophet from the midst of you, of your brothers, One like me. To Him you shall listen,
Deu 18:16 according to all that you desired of Jehovah your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying: Let me not hear again the voice of Jehovah my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, so that I do not die.
Deu 18:17 And Jehovah said to me, They have spoken well what they have spoken.
Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brothers, one like you, and will put My words in His mouth. And He shall speak to them all that I shall command Him.

Jos 1:1 And it happened after the death of Moses the servant of Jehovah, Jehovah spoke to Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying,
Jos 1:2 My servant Moses is dead. Now, therefore, raise up, go over this Jordan, you and all this people to the land which I give to them, to the sons of Israel.
Jos 1:3 Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, I have given that to you, as I said to Moses.
Jos 1:4 From the wilderness and this Lebanon even to the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and to the Great Sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your border.
Jos 1:5 No man shall be able to stand before you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so I will be with you. I will not fail you nor forsake you.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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06-01-2015, 04:54 PM (This post was last modified: 07-01-2015 07:17 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Did the bible predict a messiah?
(06-01-2015 01:38 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(06-01-2015 11:24 AM)thecontemplator Wrote:  The idea of a messiah seems to have arisen out of Jewish legends. If we're going to stick to the bible - since Christians say that's all that counts. Where exactly does it say (in the OT) a savior will come?

Well, messianic beliefs appears to be a component of Judaism, in fact, they have been expressed by numerous OT writers. Here's a link to a Jewish site, listing some of these passages in the OT.

http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

They were not a general part of Judaism, and the link you provide is in no way from a scholar. http://www.jewfaq.org/author.htm
Certainly what those Jews were expecting who thought a messiah was coming (the "anointed one" .. the "anointed one was the KING of Israel) was not someone who would "save them from their sins".) Even Jesus' followers apparently thought that was the role. Acts 1:6 "Then they gathered around him and asked him, 'Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel ?' "

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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07-01-2015, 12:38 AM
RE: Did the bible predict a messiah?
Actually I was apparently thinking of John 1:27 "He is the one who comes after me, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.” For some I had thought Moses had said that. Btw I am aware of how many things in the OT were twisted to predict Jesus. While the savior concept was present in Jewish tradition there doesn't seem to be any verse in the OT that clearly says a savior would even come.
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07-01-2015, 07:19 AM
RE: Did the bible predict a messiah?
(07-01-2015 12:38 AM)thecontemplator Wrote:  Actually I was apparently thinking of John 1:27 "He is the one who comes after me, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.” For some I had thought Moses had said that. Btw I am aware of how many things in the OT were twisted to predict Jesus. While the savior concept was present in Jewish tradition there doesn't seem to be any verse in the OT that clearly says a savior would even come.

Where was there a "savior" tradition ? What EXACTLY do you mean by "savior" ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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07-01-2015, 09:37 AM
RE: Did the bible predict a messiah?
(06-01-2015 04:54 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(06-01-2015 01:38 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Well, messianic beliefs appears to be a component of Judaism, in fact, they have been expressed by numerous OT writers. Here's a link to a Jewish site, listing some of these passages in the OT.

http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

They were not a general part of Judaism, and the link you provide is in no way from a scholar. http://www.jewfaq.org/author.htm
Certainly what those Jews were expecting who thought a messiah was coming (the "anointed one" .. the "anointed one was the KING of Israel) was not someone who would "save them from their sins".) Even Jesus' followers apparently thought that was the role. Acts 1:6 "Then they gathered around him and asked him, 'Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel ?' "

Well, Jews were certainly expecting a messiah of some sort, as were numerous OT writers. And clearly Jesus wouldn't be the sort of messiah they would have imagined, or expected, in fact he seemed to befuddle those very expectations, a seeming joke of a messiah, who ended up getting killed in a humiliating fashion by the Romans.

It's unlikely that this is what any Jew would have expected, or even the OT writers would have imagined. Even the Gospels writers seems a bit perplexed by all this.
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07-01-2015, 11:26 AM
RE: Bucky Ball
Let me back up here. The OT as we know dealt with the origin of the Jews. After various stories regarding the creation of the world we start to focus on the Jews. We have god himself giving the 10 commandments and over 500 to 600 I believe laws. There's nothing to suggest to these laws were to be temporary - why god give us faulty laws? So how did Jesus end up fitting into all this? The kingdom of Israel wound up getting to various invasions with the temple and holy grounds occupied by foreigners. It was at these point that people began saying that god would free them from their oppressors. But the time of the Romans the Jews had begun talking about a specific person - a messiah who would come. This messiah was to be an ordinary man on some sort of mission from god. The messiah's role was to help the Jews fight off the Romans and restore the ancient kingdom of Israel. At some point the Jesus stories got started. People claimed that a messiah had come but in the new version his role was changed from an earthly role to a spiritual role. He was now the son of god no less and his role was to save everyone from their sins. In my studies the main role the crucifixion seems to play is a loop hole to get out of obeying the umpteen hundred OT commandments. While many Jews still believe in a messiah who might one day come the spiritual messiah of the Christians doesn't make any sense because it goes all the ideas which always made it clear that Israel was to have an earthly kingdom. There's nothing to suggest that god was planning to change everything later down the road.
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07-01-2015, 04:23 PM
RE: Did the bible predict a messiah?















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07-01-2015, 04:33 PM
RE: Did the bible predict a messiah?
(07-01-2015 11:26 AM)thecontemplator Wrote:  Let me back up here. The OT as we know dealt with the origin of the Jews. After various stories regarding the creation of the world we start to focus on the Jews. We have god himself giving the 10 commandments and over 500 to 600 I believe laws. There's nothing to suggest to these laws were to be temporary - why god give us faulty laws? So how did Jesus end up fitting into all this? The kingdom of Israel wound up getting to various invasions with the temple and holy grounds occupied by foreigners. It was at these point that people began saying that god would free them from their oppressors. But the time of the Romans the Jews had begun talking about a specific person - a messiah who would come. This messiah was to be an ordinary man on some sort of mission from god. The messiah's role was to help the Jews fight off the Romans and restore the ancient kingdom of Israel. At some point the Jesus stories got started. People claimed that a messiah had come but in the new version his role was changed from an earthly role to a spiritual role. He was now the son of god no less and his role was to save everyone from their sins. In my studies the main role the crucifixion seems to play is a loop hole to get out of obeying the umpteen hundred OT commandments. While many Jews still believe in a messiah who might one day come the spiritual messiah of the Christians doesn't make any sense because it goes all the ideas which always made it clear that Israel was to have an earthly kingdom. There's nothing to suggest that god was planning to change everything later down the road.

Really ? Have you polled the Jews ? How would you know what they think about anything ?

Don't preach at me man. The History and Cultures of the Ancient Near East are my field. What scholars have you studied with ? Where ? Have you published anything ?

If the god in the OT, multiple times, promised the restoration of David's Kingdom, THAT alone was a "change".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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07-01-2015, 05:54 PM (This post was last modified: 07-01-2015 05:57 PM by thecontemplator.)
RE: Did the bible predict a messiah?
I never claimed to be an expert on anything. I was summarizing my impression of the main differences between Christianity and Judaism. The whole point of my posting was to have a discussion and learn.
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