Differences in political views.
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18-08-2013, 06:38 PM
Differences in political views.
Liberal vs. Conservative. Libertarian. Socialism. Capitalism.

I'm now starting to doubt that there are any significant differences, in a generalized sense. Obviously there are cases where people hold to conflicting views, but I'm starting to think that maybe majority (of differences) are superficial and/or arbitrarily and irrationally constructed.

I think that as everyone honest, reasonable and wise would be an agnostic atheist, the same methods, or means, applied there, would draw, in other forms of ideology, to the same, or similar, end.

My mind has sort of hit a brick wall. Once I rejected theism long enough, I kind of forget that people actually believe in god and/or religions, and when reminded of it, I sometimes feel like life is just a dream. I'm starting to feel the same way about political ideologies.

With god(s), I reached the point where if someone labels me an atheist, that is okay, they can just explain to me what it is they believe and why, and I'll shake my head no if it is all bullshit, sort of sensing that they don't really, honestly believe any of what they are saying.

I think I have reached that point with other ideologies. I have to watch CNN or Fox News, just to remind myself that this reality seems to exist, and I try to wake myself up to no avail.

So, is it just me? Or are political ideologies just a complete sham?

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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18-08-2013, 08:08 PM (This post was last modified: 18-08-2013 08:11 PM by PoolBoyG.)
RE: Differences in political views.
Ideologies, as I believe is popularly defined, is a set of beliefs or opinions that can be put into practice to arrive at a desired goal.

Politics, as I believe is popularly defined, is the practice of influencing and organizing a society.

Political ideologies are beliefs or opinions than can be put into practice to influence or organize society for a certain purpose.

So we have:

1. the means (beliefs, practices, etc)
2. the end (the purpose, the goal)

A lot of problems result in differences in one or both of these.

The differences result for a variety of reasons. Were they raised with different values? Were they taught to define things differently?

A christian and atheist might want "wealth, health, and peace for every single human" but they may have very different ways of going about it.

Even between atheists. An atheist might not believe in a god, but believe that a religious or christian society is the best way to serve the most amount of people.

What you want, and how to get, does differ between people. Let alone between hundreds of millions of people.

Feeling that certain established political or media groups are similar (being corporate "owned" for one example) or hypocritical, or manipulative, etc doesn't mean much. Other than that certain systems and attitudes in place are leading towards corruption - stealing wealth or destroying lives to serve luxury living for a few.

Change the the means or goals for a better result.

Don't let disillusionment lead to apathy. Apathy is the greatest, the most powerful tool, for the driven. It's much easier to control or shape society when the majority of potential opposition just lets it happen.
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18-08-2013, 08:49 PM
RE: Differences in political views.
(18-08-2013 06:38 PM)TrulyX Wrote:  Liberal vs. Conservative. Libertarian.
These are political.
Quote:Socialism. Capitalism.
These are economic. Libertarian would like to be economic as well as political, but is embarrassingly inadequate to discerning production, consumption, allocation, and decision-making. As a political standpoint, it's... acceptable.
Quote:So, is it just me? Or are political ideologies just a complete sham?
Conflation of political ideology with political reality with economic idealism is bound to lead to confusion. Take one subject at a time.

Economics decides what gets produced, and how it is distributed.

Politics decides who gets what, and how much.

Which do you want to talk about?

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18-08-2013, 09:15 PM
RE: Differences in political views.
By and large, I think the whole of politics is bullshit. Mostly because of one factor: humanity. Nobody really seems to know what they're doing, everyone seems to be talking just to talk, nobody really seems to listen to anybody else, and "consensus" is reached only when the boistrous minority is sufficiently silenced. Facts mean little, raw data is somehow "misleading", and opinion, regardless of how well or poorly founded it may be, reigns supreme. Money talks, facts walk, and the average man is left out in the cold as a result.

But that is entirely our fault. We let it come to that, that's something we have to accept before we can try to change it. I think more and more people are coming to realize that their vote is more of a formality than anything, and that you can and will be bought thanks to Citizens United. Your opinion, and mine for that matter, is a result of the current system. But to submit yourself to apathy is a bad move. It just ensures that everything continues as is.

Having said all of that, our political structures, and thereby our ideologies, are the only thing we have that allows us to attempt to enact change, and progress. You have a voice, you have an opinion, let it be heard. You don't have to follow any particular ideological structure to the letter, nobody does. Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, etc... are all just labels that people use. Largely, they mean absolutely nothing, and that's why I refuse to use one.

To sit back and do nothing is to say that it is okay that he who shouts loudest is the one who is right. That is almost never the case. Your voice means something, whether or not you can influence policy through vote is a different matter, but you always have your voice.

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19-08-2013, 09:35 AM
RE: Differences in political views.
(18-08-2013 08:08 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  What you want, and how to get, does differ between people.

You might be missing the point.

With theism (an example I used), there is no justification. Take for example: if you successfully push toward agreement, you will have a concession of faith.

Most theists are just ignorant and/or realize that what they believe is a joke.

That credulity and ignorance can be applied to any ideology related to society. The same societal pressures pushing people to believe in a particular religion, don't disappear with regard to any other form of ideology.

Quote:Feeling that certain established political or media groups are similar (being corporate "owned" for one example) or hypocritical, or manipulative, etc doesn't mean much.

I talking about all people.

I understand the position people attribute to themselves and each other, I just don't think any of them are legitimate. Completely understandable, just manufactured differences. Like with religion.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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19-08-2013, 09:36 AM
RE: Differences in political views.
(18-08-2013 08:49 PM)I Am Wrote:  
(18-08-2013 06:38 PM)TrulyX Wrote:  Liberal vs. Conservative. Libertarian.
These are political.
Quote:Socialism. Capitalism.
These are economic. Libertarian would like to be economic as well as political, but is embarrassingly inadequate to discerning production, consumption, allocation, and decision-making. As a political standpoint, it's... acceptable.
Quote:So, is it just me? Or are political ideologies just a complete sham?
Conflation of political ideology with political reality with economic idealism is bound to lead to confusion. Take one subject at a time.

Economics decides what gets produced, and how it is distributed.

Politics decides who gets what, and how much.

Which do you want to talk about?

They are all political. Liberal and conservative can be applied broadly, with capitalism and socialism, more specifically regarding economics, and libertarian a range of views, maybe more specific toward government, but if a person had political views, they would have to include social, economic, governmental, maybe philosophical, etc.

I meant to focus on ideologies with regard to society, like economic, governmental and social (apart from economic and governmental institutions), but I applied politics since that is how most people view affairs, in general, with regard to society, given that most of those decisions are made politically.

For focus, look at whether or not any of them have merit and draw legitimate differences between people. Or are there just superficial differences being created arbitrarily and irrationally.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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19-08-2013, 09:37 AM (This post was last modified: 19-08-2013 09:42 AM by TrulyX.)
RE: Differences in political views.
(18-08-2013 09:15 PM)Anudist Wrote:  Having said all of that, our political structures, and thereby our ideologies, are the only thing we have that allows us to attempt to enact change, and progress. You have a voice, you have an opinion, let it be heard. You don't have to follow any particular ideological structure to the letter, nobody does. Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, etc... are all just labels that people use. Largely, they mean absolutely nothing, and that's why I refuse to use one.

I look at it like this-- the only reason that I'm an atheist, is because someone unjustifiably, irrationally, arbitrarily and without any objective basis, founded on any kind of reasoning and logic, decided to tell me how the world works and that there is this guy, or guys, or girls, called deities that run this shit. And given that they know, and I don't, they labeled me an atheist.

I don't refuse ideologies. Atheism, is a kind of ideology, dependent on other ideologies that were forced on society, being continually rejected.

To me, that is a sham. I'm not giving up, but all I can do, like with being an atheist, is call a sham, a sham.

If people continually beg the question, use circular reasoning, and ignore providing a rational, if not logical, premise to their conclusion, that isn't the conclusion itself, there is really nothing I can do.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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19-08-2013, 09:41 AM
RE: Differences in political views.
Perhaps it is fair to say that we are all greedy creatures and we gravitate towards the political and/or economic system that most closely aligns with our form of greed.

(greed is not necessarily a bad thing, until it is applied to liberally and leads to exclusion of others at all costs)

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19-08-2013, 09:45 AM
RE: Differences in political views.
Political ideologies are not very different from religious ideologies in that they both serve the same purpose — control.

One of the biggest atheist misconceptions is that only the religious poles are damaging.

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19-08-2013, 09:49 AM
RE: Differences in political views.
(19-08-2013 09:45 AM)No Mere Ape Wrote:  Political ideologies are not very different from religious ideologies in that they both serve the same purpose — control.

One of the biggest atheist misconceptions is that only the religious poles are damaging.

I haven't had the experience that atheists commonly make the misconception that only religion is damaging.

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