Differences in political views.
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19-08-2013, 10:03 AM
RE: Differences in political views.
(19-08-2013 09:36 AM)TrulyX Wrote:  
(18-08-2013 08:49 PM)I Am Wrote:  These are political.
These are economic. Libertarian would like to be economic as well as political, but is embarrassingly inadequate to discerning production, consumption, allocation, and decision-making. As a political standpoint, it's... acceptable.
Conflation of political ideology with political reality with economic idealism is bound to lead to confusion. Take one subject at a time.

Economics decides what gets produced, and how it is distributed.

Politics decides who gets what, and how much.

Which do you want to talk about?

They are all political. Liberal and conservative can be applied broadly, with capitalism and socialism, more specifically regarding economics, and libertarian a range of views, maybe more specific toward government, but if a person had political views, they would have to include social, economic, governmental, maybe philosophical, etc.

I meant to focus on ideologies with regard to society, like economic, governmental and social (apart from economic and governmental institutions), but I applied politics since that is how most people view affairs, in general, with regard to society, given that most of those decisions are made politically.

For focus, look at whether or not any of them have merit and draw legitimate differences between people. Or are there just superficial differences being created arbitrarily and irrationally.

I have been having trouble following your logic for quite some time now so I will toss this out there and see if it answers you. For most of the people here (on TTA I mean) there seems to be a very noticeable pattern towards one of 2 political slants. 1 Socialist/Liberal 2 Libertarian/Anarcho-capitalist there are a few that have differing views but these 2 seem to be the most represented.I will briefly dive into them and give reasons as to why people who have left faith (or never had it) tend to move towards these 2 stances.

1: Socialist/liberal This one may be more of a direct result of loss of faith as this is more the polar opposite of the Conservative philosophy thats most Churches espouse. There is however very sound reasoning for having this view, in the world rankings of health, education, quality of life, life span, happiness, and several other measurable metrics the Scandinavian countries are always at or near the top of the list in every category. They are also the most Socialist countries on the planet (as opposed to Communist which is just code for dictatorship in practice) The evidence seems to suggest that if there is a right way of doing things then they are doing it right. There is no real counter argument to this from conservatives that I have ever heard (I have asked many and most just try to change to a different topic) Now for the evidence-based rational skeptic it only makes sense to pursue the best possible outcome based on the available data.

2: Libertarian/Anarcho-Capitalist (Note this is not traditional Anarchy and like Libertarianism it falls along the shallow right of the political spectrum) The blow back here is a little easier to see as it is a rejection of all organised authority and the promotion of Personal Sovereignty with little to no group status. The line of thinking the proponents of this group use is that like religion Government is an unnecessary myth that is inhibiting human advancement and if we were to shed this there would be more peace and less troubles. There is no evidence whatsoever that supports this groups thinking. In every instance where government is completely removed chaos falls and the area becomes a war zone. In countries where there is no government regulation natural resources are plundered in the most cost effective and most harmful way possible, workers are treated as slaves, and the companies have 0 responsibility. As for why skeptical people follow this philosophy I do not know but it is a significant number of people here.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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19-08-2013, 10:03 AM
RE: Differences in political views.
(18-08-2013 06:38 PM)TrulyX Wrote:  ...
and when reminded of it, I sometimes feel like life is just a dream.
...
I think I have reached that point
...

Often idealist in youth.
We age to moderateness and perhaps ripen to apathy.

I dunno. You're only 22 so that can't be it.


You triggered a thought though...

I have been noticing some patterns (Shannow? You there?) where TTAers:
  • join looking for empathy / solidarity
  • go through a phase of intense and hungry re-education
  • feel brave enough to enter the fray and hone their debate skills
  • move from bravado / antagonista* to supportive-educator
  • become the wise sage observer
  • fade to lurk-mode
  • leave and get on with their real lives

Vosur, for example.



Maybe it's an 'ideology' version of Forming – Storming – Norming – Performing

Perhaps you have reached the latter stages regarding politics.




*antagonista: new word and I likes it.

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19-08-2013, 06:19 PM
RE: Differences in political views.
(18-08-2013 06:38 PM)TrulyX Wrote:  Liberal vs. Conservative. Libertarian. Socialism. Capitalism.
...
So, is it just me? Or are political ideologies just a complete sham?

To reach your conclusion I think the logical steps must be:
1. We want to produce a socioeconomic system that benefits humanity and distributes resources equitably between individuals
2. No political ideology results in better or worse results with respect to benefiting humanity and distributing resources equitably between individuals
3. Therefore, no political ideology fits our wants (or equivalently - all political ideologies are equivalent in meeting our wants)

I think in normal political discourse this can be true in that the major political parties of a typical democracy are pretty close to each other on the political scale. Choosing one over the other will have only marginal impacts on society's benefit to itself and to its members, however there are wider differences between ideologies that do have tangible differences. Compare democracy to theocracy for example, and in general I think we'll find the theocracy is worse at providing for itself and its members.

I think it's fair to call out our so-called left and our so-called right major political parties and claim that their so-called major differences to each other are relatively minor in practice. I don't think it's fair to say that all political systems are equivalently good or that all economic systems are equivalently good.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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19-08-2013, 06:28 PM
RE: Differences in political views.
(19-08-2013 09:41 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Perhaps it is fair to say that we are all greedy creatures and we gravitate towards the political and/or economic system that most closely aligns with our form of greed.

(greed is not necessarily a bad thing, until it is applied to liberally and leads to exclusion of others at all costs)

I wouldn't say that. Greed is bad, by definition, as I usually interpret it as including excess/liberally. Maybe there is another word.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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19-08-2013, 06:35 PM
RE: Differences in political views.
(19-08-2013 06:19 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  
(18-08-2013 06:38 PM)TrulyX Wrote:  Liberal vs. Conservative. Libertarian. Socialism. Capitalism.
...
So, is it just me? Or are political ideologies just a complete sham?

To reach your conclusion I think the logical steps must be:
1. We want to produce a socioeconomic system that benefits humanity and distributes resources equitably between individuals
2. No political ideology results in better or worse results with respect to benefiting humanity and distributing resources equitably between individuals
3. Therefore, no political ideology fits our wants (or equivalently - all political ideologies are equivalent in meeting our wants)

I think in normal political discourse this can be true in that the major political parties of a typical democracy are pretty close to each other on the political scale. Choosing one over the other will have only marginal impacts on society's benefit to itself and to its members, however there are wider differences between ideologies that do have tangible differences. Compare democracy to theocracy for example, and in general I think we'll find the theocracy is worse at providing for itself and its members.

I think it's fair to call out our so-called left and our so-called right major political parties and claim that their so-called major differences to each other are relatively minor in practice. I don't think it's fair to say that all political systems are equivalently good or that all economic systems are equivalently good.

I'm asking whether or not certain ideologies have justification (not irrational, arbitrary, circular, etc).

I've mentioned theism as analogy, multiple times. Faith, in my view, isn't good enough to make decisions and/or have ideas, applied

You mentioned theocracy as an example. That would be including religion. You wouldn't have the opposition, if it weren't for the sham of religious ideology and thus theocratic ideology, which has no basis.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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19-08-2013, 06:35 PM
RE: Differences in political views.
(19-08-2013 10:03 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Often idealist in youth.
We age to moderateness and perhaps ripen to apathy.

I dunno. You're only 22 so that can't be it.

No, that's it. At least, what I think you are getting at.

I'm not apathetic, truly. I'd just say realistic and not as optimistic. And obviously, it is not as strict as idealist, moderate, apathetic. More complicated.

When thinking it is more gaining understanding: I never changed my views, as much as I've learned and progressed through more observation and information, which is still continuing.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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19-08-2013, 07:06 PM
RE: Differences in political views.
(19-08-2013 10:03 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I have been having trouble following your logic for quite some time now so I will toss this out there and see if it answers you. For most of the people here (on TTA I mean) there seems to be a very noticeable pattern towards one of 2 political slants. 1 Socialist/Liberal 2 Libertarian/Anarcho-capitalist there are a few that have differing views but these 2 seem to be the most represented.I will briefly dive into them and give reasons as to why people who have left faith (or never had it) tend to move towards these 2 stances.

1: Socialist/liberal This one may be more of a direct result of loss of faith as this is more the polar opposite of the Conservative philosophy thats most Churches espouse. There is however very sound reasoning for having this view, in the world rankings of health, education, quality of life, life span, happiness, and several other measurable metrics the Scandinavian countries are always at or near the top of the list in every category. They are also the most Socialist countries on the planet (as opposed to Communist which is just code for dictatorship in practice) The evidence seems to suggest that if there is a right way of doing things then they are doing it right. There is no real counter argument to this from conservatives that I have ever heard (I have asked many and most just try to change to a different topic) Now for the evidence-based rational skeptic it only makes sense to pursue the best possible outcome based on the available data.

2: Libertarian/Anarcho-Capitalist (Note this is not traditional Anarchy and like Libertarianism it falls along the shallow right of the political spectrum) The blow back here is a little easier to see as it is a rejection of all organised authority and the promotion of Personal Sovereignty with little to no group status. The line of thinking the proponents of this group use is that like religion Government is an unnecessary myth that is inhibiting human advancement and if we were to shed this there would be more peace and less troubles. There is no evidence whatsoever that supports this groups thinking. In every instance where government is completely removed chaos falls and the area becomes a war zone. In countries where there is no government regulation natural resources are plundered in the most cost effective and most harmful way possible, workers are treated as slaves, and the companies have 0 responsibility. As for why skeptical people follow this philosophy I do not know but it is a significant number of people here.

Libertarian, for one, is left-wing. It is just broad, like liberal, just applied differently-- opposed to authoritarian (usually), not conservative. People can simply accept that capitalism does not violate libertarianism, same as liberals can decide it doesn't violate liberalism, because both of those terms are broad, and reasoning must be used in application.

For that reason, it is unfair to throw in liberal with socialist; also you have to be aware that socialist isn't the most fairly defined term, historically. Same with communism. Most are only communist in principle. Having a dictatorship, however, would be in complete contradiction to what would be fairly and accurately labeled communism.

Also, I wouldn't label the views like you did. From what I've seen there are supporters of liberal state capitalism (some more libertarian), capitalist (mixed/regulated) social welfare states (which I think you are supporting), and groups of libertarians and anarchists, some communists, others capitalist. The only group I really don't see supported much are state socialists (Soviet Union type) and conservative/reactionary with regard to things that would be labeled social issues.

Quote:The evidence seems to suggest that if there is a right way of doing things then they are doing it right. There is no real counter argument to this from conservatives that I have ever heard (I have asked many and most just try to change to a different topic) Now for the evidence-based rational skeptic it only makes sense to pursue the best possible outcome based on the available data.

What evidence are you talking about?

What does the economic, social, goverment, systems consist of?

What would be your overall views, and what is the basis (logic, reasoning, argument) behind it for justification?

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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19-08-2013, 07:10 PM
RE: Differences in political views.
(19-08-2013 07:06 PM)TrulyX Wrote:  
(19-08-2013 10:03 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I have been having trouble following your logic for quite some time now so I will toss this out there and see if it answers you. For most of the people here (on TTA I mean) there seems to be a very noticeable pattern towards one of 2 political slants. 1 Socialist/Liberal 2 Libertarian/Anarcho-capitalist there are a few that have differing views but these 2 seem to be the most represented.I will briefly dive into them and give reasons as to why people who have left faith (or never had it) tend to move towards these 2 stances.

1: Socialist/liberal This one may be more of a direct result of loss of faith as this is more the polar opposite of the Conservative philosophy thats most Churches espouse. There is however very sound reasoning for having this view, in the world rankings of health, education, quality of life, life span, happiness, and several other measurable metrics the Scandinavian countries are always at or near the top of the list in every category. They are also the most Socialist countries on the planet (as opposed to Communist which is just code for dictatorship in practice) The evidence seems to suggest that if there is a right way of doing things then they are doing it right. There is no real counter argument to this from conservatives that I have ever heard (I have asked many and most just try to change to a different topic) Now for the evidence-based rational skeptic it only makes sense to pursue the best possible outcome based on the available data.

2: Libertarian/Anarcho-Capitalist (Note this is not traditional Anarchy and like Libertarianism it falls along the shallow right of the political spectrum) The blow back here is a little easier to see as it is a rejection of all organised authority and the promotion of Personal Sovereignty with little to no group status. The line of thinking the proponents of this group use is that like religion Government is an unnecessary myth that is inhibiting human advancement and if we were to shed this there would be more peace and less troubles. There is no evidence whatsoever that supports this groups thinking. In every instance where government is completely removed chaos falls and the area becomes a war zone. In countries where there is no government regulation natural resources are plundered in the most cost effective and most harmful way possible, workers are treated as slaves, and the companies have 0 responsibility. As for why skeptical people follow this philosophy I do not know but it is a significant number of people here.

Libertarian, for one, is left-wing. It is just broad, like liberal, just applied differently-- opposed to authoritarian (usually), not conservative. People can simply accept that capitalism does not violate libertarianism, same as liberals can decide it doesn't violate liberalism, because both of those terms are broad, and reasoning must be used in application.

For that reason, it is unfair to throw in liberal with socialist; also you have to be aware that socialist isn't the most fairly defined term, historically. Same with communism. Most are only communist in principle. Having a dictatorship, however, would be in complete contradiction to what would be fairly and accurately labeled communism.

Also, I wouldn't label the views like you did. From what I've seen there are supporters of liberal state capitalism (some more libertarian), capitalist (mixed/regulated) social welfare states (which I think you are supporting), and groups of libertarians and anarchists, some communists, others capitalist. The only group I really don't see supported much are state socialists (Soviet Union type) and conservative/reactionary with regard to things that would be labeled social issues.

Quote:The evidence seems to suggest that if there is a right way of doing things then they are doing it right. There is no real counter argument to this from conservatives that I have ever heard (I have asked many and most just try to change to a different topic) Now for the evidence-based rational skeptic it only makes sense to pursue the best possible outcome based on the available data.

What evidence are you talking about?

What does the economic, social, goverment, systems consist of?

What would be your overall views, and what is the basis (logic, reasoning, argument) behind it for justification?

Nice quote mining. I explained all that the sentence before. Also in what universe is Libertarianism left wing? It is as small a government as possible philosophy and thus right wing. The rest of your statement is incomprehensible so merits no response.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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20-08-2013, 10:44 AM
RE: Differences in political views.
(19-08-2013 07:10 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Nice quote mining. I explained all that the sentence before.

Assuming that you were referring to the question: even if you did explain, it wasn't sufficient, and I asked again. It wasn't sound. It wasn't logical. Had no sufficient explanation. No basis. And so on.

If you felt that you have already sufficiently explained, simply quote yourself and explain further, so I can see what you feel, specifically, constitutes your position and justification for that position.

If you don't want to explain and provide for your position, simply say that is the case.

Quote:Also in what universe is Libertarianism left wing? It is as small a government as possible philosophy and thus right wing.

From the traditions linked to classical liberalism, all the way up until today. It is by definition that libertarianism is left-wing. The meaning of the left is defined in opposition to established institutions of social inequality, in status and authority. From the time when people were demanding republicanism and democracy over a king, to abolishing slavery, to abolishing economic institutions, and so on.

Libertarianism, isn't even a "small a government as possible philosophy", it is one, with regard to liberty. Government by its authoritarian nature, can have qualities of infringing on liberty. It is a broad philosophy, however. For some libertarians they see certain economic institutions as also infringing on liberty, and thus left in that regard also, while others don't and are right-wing with regard to economics. Some are opposed to government completely.

Quote:The rest of your statement is incomprehensible so merits no response.

If you didn't understand something, all you have to do is ask for me to explain it.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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20-08-2013, 12:02 PM
RE: Differences in political views.
(20-08-2013 10:44 AM)TrulyX Wrote:  From the traditions linked to classical liberalism, all the way up until today. It is by definition that libertarianism is left-wing. The meaning of the left is defined in opposition to established institutions of social inequality, in status and authority. From the time when people were demanding republicanism and democracy over a king, to abolishing slavery, to abolishing economic institutions, and so on.

Libertarianism, isn't even a "small a government as possible philosophy", it is one, with regard to liberty. Government by its authoritarian nature, can have qualities of infringing on liberty. It is a broad philosophy, however. For some libertarians they see certain economic institutions as also infringing on liberty, and thus left in that regard also, while others don't and are right-wing with regard to economics. Some are opposed to government completely.

The only real left-wing are the Jacobins.

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