Dilemma
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02-08-2016, 11:09 AM (This post was last modified: 02-08-2016 11:13 AM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Dilemma
I'm pretty sure the "opiate of the masses" line was referring not to something that mellowed people out, but to something that caused them to be too mind-blown to mount an effective defense against exploitation.

I agree with you about religion, though. When amped-up by firebrand clerics, it can be like giving a whole population meth and PCP. Angel Dust, indeed.

Szuchow- I agree with your point. People always point to desperate poverty as a counter-example to relative poverty. Any of us in the First World are better-off than those on the bottom in the Third World, where they can barely survive. But this isn't what Marx was talking about-- he meant those who accept their fate as the exploited class in an industrialized, prosperous society where people need not be kept at what amounts to bare subsistence wages in nations of plenty, just so the elite can afford to buy another island. Organized religion has always served the interests of the rulers of that nation (and can be turned against invaders), which in the modern context means providing a comfort to those who otherwise might get loud about the unfairness created by their fellow human beings.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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02-08-2016, 11:17 AM
RE: Dilemma
(02-08-2016 11:06 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(02-08-2016 09:50 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Hrm, there might be an interesting case made that the rise in relative wealth of today's poor, in comparison to the standards of past centuries, is what allowed for the significant rise in secularism among those not in the wealthy, educated elite. More full bellies means less people miserably praying over their cabbage soup just to have some sense of relief from their powerlessness.

I can see this happening.
It is also interesting to note that the relationship between religiosity and income as Dom implies holds for party affiliations. You see it play out here in the US State to State.

Religiosity rank of US States

[Image: Religious+Correlations.png]

A quick cross-reference shows that if you compare income to political affiliations

[Image: Simple2008PresElections-USA-states-565x389_6.png]

vs

AMERICA’S RICHEST AND POOREST STATES
50. Mississippi – Median household income: $39,680 Poverty rate: 21.5%
49. West Virginia – Median household income: $41,059 Poverty rate: 18.3%
48. Arkansas – Median household income: $41,262 Poverty rate: 18.9%
47. Alabama – Median household income: $42,830 Poverty rate: 19.3%
46. Kentucky – Median household income: $42,958 Poverty rate: 19.1%
45. Tennessee – Median household income: $44,361 Poverty rate: 18.3%
44. Louisiana – Median household income: $44,555 Poverty rate: 19.8%
43. New Mexico – Median household income: $44,803 Poverty rate: 21.3%
42. South Carolina – Median household income: $45,238 Poverty rate: 18.0%
41. Montana – Median household income: $46,328 Poverty rate: 15.4%
40. North Carolina – Median household income: $46,556 Poverty rate: 17.2%
39. Florida – Median household income: $47,463 Poverty rate: 16.5%
38. Oklahoma – Median household income: $47,529 Poverty rate: 16.6%
37. Idaho – Median household income: $47,861 Poverty rate: 14.8%
36. Missouri – Median household income: $48,363 Poverty rate: 15.5%
35. Ohio – Median household income: $49,308 Poverty rate: 15.8%
34. Georgia – Median household income: $49,321 Poverty rate: 18.3%
33. Indiana – Median household income: $49,446 Poverty rate: 15.2%
32. Maine – Median household income: $49,462 Poverty rate: 14.1%
31. Michigan – Median household income: $49,847 Poverty rate: 16.2%
30. Arizona – Median household income: $50,068 Poverty rate: 18.2%
29. South Dakota – Median household income: $50,979 Poverty rate: 14.2%
28. Oregon – Median household income: $51,075 Poverty rate: 16.6%
27. Nevada – Median household income: $51,450 Poverty rate: 15.2%
26. Kansas – Median household income: $52,504 Poverty rate: 13.6%
25. Wisconsin – Median household income: $52,622 Poverty rate: 13.2%
24. Nebraska – Median household income: $52,686 Poverty rate: 12.4%
23. Texas – Median household income: $53,035 Poverty rate: 17.2%
22. Pennsylvania – Median household income: $53,234 Poverty rate: 13.6%
21. Iowa – Median household income: $53,712 Poverty rate: 12.2%
20. Vermont – Median household income: $54,166 Poverty rate: 12.2%
19. Rhode Island – Median household income: $54,891 Poverty rate: 14.3%
18. Wyoming – Median household income: $57,055 Poverty rate: 11.2%
17. Illinois – Median household income: $57,444 Poverty rate: 14.4%
16. New York – Median household income: $58,878 Poverty rate: 15.9%
15. North Dakota – Median household income: $59,029 Poverty rate: 11.5%
14. Delaware – Median household income: $59,716 Poverty rate: 12.5%
13. Utah – Median household income: $60,922 Poverty rate: 11.7%
12. Colorado – Median household income: $61,303 Poverty rate: 12.0%
11. Washington – Median household income: $61,366 Poverty rate: 13.2%
10. Minnesota – Median household income: $61,481 Poverty rate: 11.5%
9. California – Median household income: $61,933 Poverty rate: 16.4%
8. Virginia – Median household income: $64,902 Poverty rate: 11.8%
7. New Hampshire – Median household income: $66,532 Poverty rate: 9.2%
6. Massachusetts – Median household income: $69,160 Poverty rate: 11.6%
5. Hawaii – Median household income: $69,592 Poverty rate: 11.4%
4. Connecticut – Median household income: $70,048 Poverty rate: 10.8%
3. Alaska – Median household income: $71,583 Poverty rate: 11.2%
2. New Jersey – Median household income: $71,919 Poverty rate: 11.1%
1. Maryland- Median household income: $73,971 Poverty rate: 10.1%

The lower a State is on the Median Household Income chart the more religious it is and the more likely to be a Red State.

Look at Vermont there as the least religious state!

I'll bet they have an atheist Senator ... spread the word.

Unsure

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02-08-2016, 11:22 AM (This post was last modified: 02-08-2016 11:31 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Dilemma
(02-08-2016 11:09 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Szuchow- I agree with your point. People always point to desperate poverty as a counter-example to relative poverty. Any of us in the First World are better-off than those on the bottom in the Third World, where they can barely survive.

I know. Being able to feed and clothe myself does not mean that I'm rich or even in the middle of the scale considering that we are talking about country which is in EU. Sure, I'm not starving and homelessness does not threaten me, I have laptop and internet connection but it hardly make me not poor; it make me not destitute.

(02-08-2016 11:09 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  But this isn't what Marx was talking about-- he meant those who accept their fate as the exploited class in an industrialized, prosperous society where people need not be kept at what amounts to bare subsistence wages in nations of plenty, just so the elite can afford to buy another island. Organized religion has always served the interests of the rulers of that nation (and can be turned against invaders), which in the modern context means providing a comfort to those who otherwise might get loud about the unfairness created by their fellow human beings.

I weren't talking about Marx (except from mentioning his name in humorous comment) in this thread if I recall correctly, but I agree with your take on the subject.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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02-08-2016, 11:41 AM
RE: Dilemma
(02-08-2016 11:17 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Look at Vermont there as the least religious state!

I'll bet they have an atheist Senator ... spread the word.

Unsure

I didn’t know that.

It is interesting to see a few outliers, Alaska is Red, not religious and with high income. New Mexico is Blue, relatively religious but low income.

On the first chart you can see why Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania are swing States, they are right in the middle of the bunch in religiosity and ranked 22, 35 and 39 in income and all three have lots of electoral votes.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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02-08-2016, 11:48 AM
RE: Dilemma
(02-08-2016 11:06 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(02-08-2016 09:50 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Hrm, there might be an interesting case made that the rise in relative wealth of today's poor, in comparison to the standards of past centuries, is what allowed for the significant rise in secularism among those not in the wealthy, educated elite. More full bellies means less people miserably praying over their cabbage soup just to have some sense of relief from their powerlessness.

I can see this happening.
It is also interesting to note that the relationship between religiosity and income as Dom implies holds for party affiliations. You see it play out here in the US State to State.

Religiosity rank of US States

[Image: Religious+Correlations.png]

A quick cross-reference shows that if you compare income to political affiliations

[Image: Simple2008PresElections-USA-states-565x389_6.png]

vs

AMERICA’S RICHEST AND POOREST STATES
50. Mississippi – Median household income: $39,680 Poverty rate: 21.5%
49. West Virginia – Median household income: $41,059 Poverty rate: 18.3%
48. Arkansas – Median household income: $41,262 Poverty rate: 18.9%
47. Alabama – Median household income: $42,830 Poverty rate: 19.3%
46. Kentucky – Median household income: $42,958 Poverty rate: 19.1%
45. Tennessee – Median household income: $44,361 Poverty rate: 18.3%
44. Louisiana – Median household income: $44,555 Poverty rate: 19.8%
43. New Mexico – Median household income: $44,803 Poverty rate: 21.3%
42. South Carolina – Median household income: $45,238 Poverty rate: 18.0%
41. Montana – Median household income: $46,328 Poverty rate: 15.4%
40. North Carolina – Median household income: $46,556 Poverty rate: 17.2%
39. Florida – Median household income: $47,463 Poverty rate: 16.5%
38. Oklahoma – Median household income: $47,529 Poverty rate: 16.6%
37. Idaho – Median household income: $47,861 Poverty rate: 14.8%
36. Missouri – Median household income: $48,363 Poverty rate: 15.5%
35. Ohio – Median household income: $49,308 Poverty rate: 15.8%
34. Georgia – Median household income: $49,321 Poverty rate: 18.3%
33. Indiana – Median household income: $49,446 Poverty rate: 15.2%
32. Maine – Median household income: $49,462 Poverty rate: 14.1%
31. Michigan – Median household income: $49,847 Poverty rate: 16.2%
30. Arizona – Median household income: $50,068 Poverty rate: 18.2%
29. South Dakota – Median household income: $50,979 Poverty rate: 14.2%
28. Oregon – Median household income: $51,075 Poverty rate: 16.6%
27. Nevada – Median household income: $51,450 Poverty rate: 15.2%
26. Kansas – Median household income: $52,504 Poverty rate: 13.6%
25. Wisconsin – Median household income: $52,622 Poverty rate: 13.2%
24. Nebraska – Median household income: $52,686 Poverty rate: 12.4%
23. Texas – Median household income: $53,035 Poverty rate: 17.2%
22. Pennsylvania – Median household income: $53,234 Poverty rate: 13.6%
21. Iowa – Median household income: $53,712 Poverty rate: 12.2%
20. Vermont – Median household income: $54,166 Poverty rate: 12.2%
19. Rhode Island – Median household income: $54,891 Poverty rate: 14.3%
18. Wyoming – Median household income: $57,055 Poverty rate: 11.2%
17. Illinois – Median household income: $57,444 Poverty rate: 14.4%
16. New York – Median household income: $58,878 Poverty rate: 15.9%
15. North Dakota – Median household income: $59,029 Poverty rate: 11.5%
14. Delaware – Median household income: $59,716 Poverty rate: 12.5%
13. Utah – Median household income: $60,922 Poverty rate: 11.7%
12. Colorado – Median household income: $61,303 Poverty rate: 12.0%
11. Washington – Median household income: $61,366 Poverty rate: 13.2%
10. Minnesota – Median household income: $61,481 Poverty rate: 11.5%
9. California – Median household income: $61,933 Poverty rate: 16.4%
8. Virginia – Median household income: $64,902 Poverty rate: 11.8%
7. New Hampshire – Median household income: $66,532 Poverty rate: 9.2%
6. Massachusetts – Median household income: $69,160 Poverty rate: 11.6%
5. Hawaii – Median household income: $69,592 Poverty rate: 11.4%
4. Connecticut – Median household income: $70,048 Poverty rate: 10.8%
3. Alaska – Median household income: $71,583 Poverty rate: 11.2%
2. New Jersey – Median household income: $71,919 Poverty rate: 11.1%
1. Maryland- Median household income: $73,971 Poverty rate: 10.1%

The lower a State is on the Median Household Income chart the more religious it is and the more likely to be a Red State.

Thanks for the charts - really interesting.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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02-08-2016, 03:02 PM
RE: Dilemma
(02-08-2016 11:41 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  I didn’t know that.

It is interesting to see a few outliers, Alaska is Red, not religious and with high income. New Mexico is Blue, relatively religious but low income.

Alaska is flush with oil money, with well-paid but highly-conservative workers, often coming from the oil fields in the Deep South (TX/LA) in search of higher pay. Of course, they're still relatively badly-off, there, because the cost of living is so high (Alaska must import, with some difficulty, the majority of its consumer products).

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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02-08-2016, 03:13 PM
RE: Dilemma
Hawaii is another odd one to look at. high income but also high cost of living, and looking across all the other factors it is quite a puzzle.
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03-08-2016, 09:40 AM
RE: Dilemma
(02-08-2016 11:41 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(02-08-2016 11:17 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Look at Vermont there as the least religious state!

I'll bet they have an atheist Senator ... spread the word.

Unsure

I didn’t know that.
...

I was kidding. He's jewish.

But there are DNC emails that ...

Yes

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03-08-2016, 08:12 PM
RE: Dilemma
A follow-up to my earlier post on income and political affiliation. 17 of the 20 most federally dependent states are red... Consider

https://wallethub.com/edu/states-most-le...ed-vs-blue

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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03-08-2016, 10:04 PM
RE: Dilemma
(01-08-2016 11:21 PM)omarsabbagh Wrote:  From an atheist perspective, how can we understand the society classes i.e rich and poor??

True Dilemma

I think we should strive for a classless society, in which people have access to decision-making power in proportion to how they are affected by the decision, and access to resources according to the effort and sacrifice they make in their work.

To keep high-effort or high-sacrifice jobs from attaining disproportionate resource control, work should be apportioned in a balanced way, so that jobs include a fair distribution of manual labor, creative work, executive work, desk drudgery, &etc.

For instance, a job that includes assembly-line work might have that for half a day, with the other half split between bookkeeping and a committee on designing a new output for the factory. Or, a nurse might do two shifts a week in an OR, one in the laundry, and one on the Medical Executive Committee.

But that's just me and a few other geeky radicals. Many other atheists will disagree.
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